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hulapluto
09-05-2004, 10:32 PM
Ok,

I was contacted by a girl named Mariya Koroleva from the worldfriends.tv website. My first response was just to delete the email because it was from a list.ru domain, I work for and ISP and i've seen lots of domains like this involved in spam. Well, she seems nice enough, although the speed in which she is making romantic suggestion is overwhelming... we've exchanged a total of 6 emails and she's already telling me "I think of you every day, all nights, every moment!!! I can't live without your letter, I need your letters every day! Maybe it's too early to talk about it but I am already talking!" I can see how lonely guys get caught up in this, I would love to believe a beautiful women thinks about me like this.

So's I did some checking.

Her profile is suspended on worldfriends, I emailed them and they said it was due to the user using a fraudulent credit card for membership.

I did a traceroute on her IP in the e-mail, she claims she's from Kraslava, and uses an internet cafe, but the trace shows up going to a dialup IP in russia, belonging to a JS? Martelcom.

She also sent me her address, which I can only assume is fake: st. Tirgus, 35 - 12, LV-5600,Kraslava, Latvia I am not sure how to go about checking it in the first place though.

Any suggestions? I though i'd post here before responding, I'm also posting this on antiscam.net.

She hasn't asked for money yet... but i'm sure it's comming. Should I keep responding, or should I ask her point blank?

wxman2003
09-07-2004, 12:31 AM
I think it a pretty easy answer. She uses stolen credit cards, and her address is fake. Who wouldn't want to meet a woman like that? As the old saying goes, If it sounds like a duck, walks like a duck...

hulapluto
09-07-2004, 01:05 AM
Yeah, I read some of the letters on this site last night, all of the ones for Julia Solodovich matched mine, except for slight variations of course. I had a funny feeling from the start that something wasn't quite right, but I was ready to give the benefit of the doubt. Something I won't do again.

Thanks for this great site, it was truly a help!!

zedralf
09-09-2004, 08:42 PM
I believe there are a number of girls involved with these type of form letters that are being used like the ones addressed to you, Halapluto. What is strange is, I think I got one of the girls to stop doing it. I am young, and one of the girls who is supposedly about my age started sending me the same bogus form letters, then all of a sudden she started writing me real letters, which were riddled with mistakes. But in these letters she still claims she loves me. Well, I found the form of letters she uses on this site, and confronted her after about 20 letters. I did so with compassion, and I said I understand that life is hard where she lives, and if I were in her shoes, I might be tempted to do the same, but it is wrong and it hurts people. I said, after all, there are real people at the end of the computer where you are writing and this hurts these people. I offer to send her money to help her if she stops doing it, and she refused the money. She said she did intend to take my money, but is ashamed and has actually fallen in love with me. Then she calls crying. What do you all think??? Should I show her mercy and try to trust her and understand her?? They all can't be bad people. Maybe someone needs to get some of these women who have a conscience to realize what they are doing. If you were poor, and everyday of your life was a struggle like hers, would you not be tempted to do the same thing, especially on the internet where there are no faces involved. I think I should show her mercy. She says she has stopped doing these scams. What do you think??

wxman2003
09-10-2004, 01:24 AM
I have been over to the Ukraine last April. You are right. life is hard for people over there. It is tempting to try to make quick money. They probably think we will not miss a few dollars here and there, and they could realy use the money. I have met a really nice woman over there who has a 7 year old girl. Life is hard being a single parent (many divorced men don't give child support) and I can understand their plight. Nw that I know her, and met her, I doo feel comfortable sending her money on occasion. In fact I plan to visit again in November. I know you are in a dilemma on wanting to help her, but you also must remember, they have much pride there, and it is difficult for them to ask for help (at least the honest ones). Perhaps you should go visit her. See how she responds to that. If she is truly genuine, she will be impressed that you are putting much effort in trying to know her. I would not send money to her now. Meet her first. She will survive without your money. Remember, rent is cheap, food is cheap, so they do survive. They just can't afford all the luxuries that we have.

zedralf
09-10-2004, 10:02 AM
WXMAN 2003, I appreciate your advice. What happened, is, I already offered to send her money, but she will not take it. My dilemma was whether she is an honest person or not, and I believe she is, despite taking part in these scams. I just think that the majority of these girls are not as bad as they are made out to be, it is just too tempting get "easy money" when your life is hard. I have been to Kiev and Moscow, and I was there in early 1992, when nobody there had money to even buy a loaf of bread. So, I have a special place in my heart for these people. For the majority of people in the former Soviet Union, when a person wakes up in the morning, she wonders what kind of bad problems the day will bring. Every day is hard. She is surviving just fine, but her family has little money. She called me crying not because she was in need of money, but because she was humiliated and ashamed at what she was doing. Very ashamed. She respects me and puts trust in me because I show her love and compassion. Something we should all do for these people, instead of crucifying them on the internet. Their life is very unjust. It is so easy to make a positive situation out of a negative one.

wxman2003
09-11-2004, 12:15 AM
Zedraf,

I agree that we are often quick to criticize all FSU women when they ask for money. Obviously there are plenty of scammers out there. But some people truly do need help. She sounds like a wonderful person, and after reading what you wrote, I would have been inclined to offer money too. Life is not easy for many people in the FSU. I was amazed at the standard of living (or lack of it) in Lugansk. The woman I met had an apartment that to say the least, would be condemned in my country. She struggles every day trying to raise her daughter, and actually moved back in with her mother, because of the crime in the complex she was staying. Many people standing around doing nothing at these complexes, and I always felt the staring eyes. The day to day struggles of living is quite evident. There are a few (police) that live a good life. The rest, it's day to day.

zedralf
09-11-2004, 05:10 PM
WXMAN2003,

My girl has told me that she went to an international dating agency, and they forced her to write the scam letters. She says it is done all over Russia. She says as far as she knows, nearly all of the scams are done in Russia and Ukraine, and the poor girls are FORCED to scam people or else get thrown out of the agency. The money is sent to the agency and they get all of it and give none to the girl. She apologizes to all the men the agency has scammed. This agency does the type of letters included in names Ekaterina Belyh, Julia Solodovich, etc. The letters claim to be from Latvia, Estonia, but are run in Russia. So, please, don't blame the girls. They are honest...believe me, this girl is gleeming with honesty. I am going to get her out of there (after I visit her and get her a K-1, that is.)

wxman2003
09-12-2004, 01:46 AM
It is sad that agencies use women like that to make money. I was lucky enough to find someone who doesn't use an agency. She told me the same thing. She did go to an agency at first. She thought they were ripping off men, as she never got a letter from anyone. She knows that the agency was writing using her pictures that they took of her. She has a regular email account, and she goes to the local internet cafe to retrieve it. She has a friend that helps to translate to Russian. I have met the translator and she is a friend that speaks fluent english and french and teaches at university. I think she speaks better english that me! But she does charge a fee to translate. I understand that, and let's face it, people do not make a good living there. So anytime they can make a few extra dollars (legit) they do. I have no problem with that, because I do not speak Russian, and she does not speak english. The translator is kindly teaching her english for no charge because she is a friend. So sometimes sending money for translation is legit and not a scam.

zedralf
09-16-2004, 06:05 PM
wxman2003, Try this free translator:

http://translation1.paralink.com/

English to Russian, Russian to English, copy and paste onto your letters!!! FREE!!!! I don't need it, because my girl speaks extremely good english and I speak some Russian, but I use it to make it easy on her sometimes.

Are you a weatherman??? I am!!

wxman2003
09-16-2004, 07:43 PM
Zedralf,

Thanks for the link. I will have to give it a try. Yes, I'm a weatherman too! Weather geeks unite. LOL

todd1970_2
10-13-2004, 06:09 AM
I ALSO RECIVED THE SAME FIRST SIX LETTERS FROM"MARIYA KOROLEVA"OF LATVIA. AND I WAS ALMOST TAKEN IN BY HER AS WELL. SHE FELL FOR ME TO FAST FOR COMFORT. I SAW YOUR LISTING AND I SENT HER E-MAIL CONFONTING HER ON THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER. I GOT A REPLY STATING THAT "SHE DID NOT DECIVE ME AND THAT HER HEART WAS BROKEN". SHE WAS ASKING FOR MONEY TO COME TO AMERICA AND WE EXCHANGED SEVERAL E-MAILS BEGING IN AUGUST. I NEVER SENT ANY MONEY TO HER. SHE GAVE ME A BANK ACCOUNT IN NEW YORK FOR A TRANSFER TO LATVIA. I ALSO RECIVED SIX PHOTOS OF "HER".? I LOST THE BANK ACCOUNT INFO DUE TO MY COMPUTER CRASHING LAST WEEK. I FEEL USED AND LIKE A FOOL. THANK YOU FOR POSTING THE INFORMATION ON "HER". I HOPE NO-ONE ELSE FALLS FOR THIS SCAM.

AmericanRichardC
10-14-2004, 08:57 AM
In response to Hulapluto's query, I entirely agree with Wyxman's September 6 take on the facts and, moreover, I'd like to add that theft of credit card numbers is rampant in Ukraine and one of the businesses of the Ukrainian mafia. I used one of my cards in a few restaurants in Kiev and the number was stolen and illegal charges put on my card in Spain. A very well-traveled friend of mine Roy told me that the Ukrainian mafia can even get your number if you retrieve cash through an ATM! I am not sure about the situation in Russia but the situation in Belarus is better if only because it is a police state and the state under Lukachenko works like a mafia. Anyway, that this lady is into credit card fraud makes her potentially a really dangerous liaison best to be avoided.

My other comment concerns other views expressed by Zedraf and, to a lesser extent, Wxman. Excuse me for the sarcasm but I think you two ought to establish a bleeding heart's website for scammers. That "life is hard" in Ukraine and Russia can never be a justification for the perpetration of fraud and, in rationalizing scamming in economic terms, you come across as apologists for scammers. A hard life isn't a defense: It isn't analogous to stealing a loaf of bread to prevent starvation. In fact, life isn't so hard as you maintain for Russians and Ukrainians -- do you think it is Sub-Saharan Africa with starvation and AIDs epidemics? -- that's where life is really hard. The poorest ladies I have visited in Eastern Europe are in Dneprodzerzhinsk, Ukraine, and Vitebsk, Belarus, where people are getting by on modest means. Often, families live together in somewhat crowded circumstances but there isn't desperation. You really sound like, at times, that you read from a cue card for scammers.

You further rationalize that "they can't all be bad" (again an apology and why not? Is it epistemologically unsound for a given category to exhibit a common trait?) and you naively think that you can reform scammers, yet, if they had any conscience at all, they would never have begun their criminal enterprise. The fact that they engage in criminal activities is clear and convincing evidence that they are "bad." Even if you could in a rare instance reform one, why would you apply your energies (almost certainly in vain) to such a dubious undertaking, let alone invest financial and emotional capital in (at best) a possibly reformable scammer, when there are plenty of honest women to date? If you guys are philanthropists and have money to burn, why don't you direct your donations to charitable organizations that really need your hard-earned cash and will do some good with it (instead of directing it to women who'll take your money and mock you as fools behind your backs according to the old adage "a fool and his money are easily parted" -- especially easily parted, one might add, by a sexy lady)? Zedraft: you really think that your "reformed" scammer loves you after a few emails or is your ego on parade? (If she does, isn't it a superficial and meaningless kind of love?) Is it an unwritten rule that scammers can't switch letter writing tactics going from form letters to letters in broken English? Can't cry on the phone, etc.?

You say that women are coerced into scamming by the threat of an agency to ban them from their website -- Is this like being banished from Valhalla or Eden? Of course, an honest woman could be duped by an unscrupulous agency and subject to identity theft but, if she has grounds to be suspicious, she is obliged to withdraw her profile.

Sorry about ripping into you guys but I'm well intentioned. My point is focus your energy on honest women. At least, Wyxman, despite his apologetics, seems to have met an honest woman although to what extent his lady is motivated by feelings for him as opposed to escaping the resposibilities of single parenthood in lovely Lugansk merits observation over time to determine. Meeting honest women in their home country, notice I am using the plural here, is eminently feasible and well worth the effort in my experience: just beware of how you are making the initial contact through the internet.

Richard




[

w1ngzer0
10-16-2004, 04:06 AM
Well well looks like im added to this scam of a website. They don't even have a bloody phone number. I hope this website is shut down eventually

wxman2003
10-16-2004, 12:27 PM
AmericanRichardC, you are right that having a hard life does not justify scammimg people. I agree with you 100%. That is why I have been more cautious with this woman that I met in Lugansk. Without a doubt there are women over there, and here, and everywhere in this world that will latch on to a guy that can provide a better standard of living (money). In America they chase millionaires, in poor countries, middle class Americans look rich. So getting scammed happens right under our nose. Most Men likes to have a young attractive woman at their side. That is a male flaw, and women know that. We don't always think with our brain. But with that all said, there are genuine people everywhere. I hope I have found a wonderful woman. Could she be playing me, to get out of her living situation? That is possible. That is why I am going real slow. It's been almost 18 months since we first started writing, and it will probably be that long before she will even have a chance to come here. Hopefully after meeting her several more times, I will be able to tell.

zedralf
10-16-2004, 04:32 PM
quote:Originally posted by AmericanRichardC

In response to Hulapluto's query, I entirely agree with Wyxman's September 6 take on the facts and, moreover, I'd like to add that theft of credit card numbers is rampant in Ukraine and one of the businesses of the Ukrainian mafia. I used one of my cards in a few restaurants in Kiev and the number was stolen and illegal charges put on my card in Spain. A very well-traveled friend of mine Roy told me that the Ukrainian mafia can even get your number if you retrieve cash through an ATM! I am not sure about the situation in Russia but the situation in Belarus is better if only because it is a police state and the state under Lukachenko works like a mafia. Anyway, that this lady is into credit card fraud makes her potentially a really dangerous liaison best to be avoided.

My other comment concerns other views expressed by Zedraf and, to a lesser extent, Wxman. Excuse me for the sarcasm but I think you two ought to establish a bleeding heart's website for scammers. That "life is hard" in Ukraine and Russia can never be a justification for the perpetration of fraud and, in rationalizing scamming in economic terms, you come across as apologists for scammers. A hard life isn't a defense: It isn't analogous to stealing a loaf of bread to prevent starvation. In fact, life isn't so hard as you maintain for Russians and Ukrainians -- do you think it is Sub-Saharan Africa with starvation and AIDs epidemics? -- that's where life is really hard. The poorest ladies I have visited in Eastern Europe are in Dneprodzerzhinsk, Ukraine, and Vitebsk, Belarus, where people are getting by on modest means. Often, families live together in somewhat crowded circumstances but there isn't desperation. You really sound like, at times, that you read from a cue card for scammers.

You further rationalize that "they can't all be bad" (again an apology and why not? Is it epistemologically unsound for a given category to exhibit a common trait?) and you naively think that you can reform scammers, yet, if they had any conscience at all, they would never have begun their criminal enterprise. The fact that they engage in criminal activities is clear and convincing evidence that they are "bad." Even if you could in a rare instance reform one, why would you apply your energies (almost certainly in vain) to such a dubious undertaking, let alone invest financial and emotional capital in (at best) a possibly reformable scammer, when there are plenty of honest women to date? If you guys are philanthropists and have money to burn, why don't you direct your donations to charitable organizations that really need your hard-earned cash and will do some good with it (instead of directing it to women who'll take your money and mock you as fools behind your backs according to the old adage "a fool and his money are easily parted" -- especially easily parted, one might add, by a sexy lady)? Zedraft: you really think that your "reformed" scammer loves you after a few emails or is your ego on parade? (If she does, isn't it a superficial and meaningless kind of love?) Is it an unwritten rule that scammers can't switch letter writing tactics going from form letters to letters in broken English? Can't cry on the phone, etc.?

You say that women are coerced into scamming by the threat of an agency to ban them from their website -- Is this like being banished from Valhalla or Eden? Of course, an honest woman could be duped by an unscrupulous agency and subject to identity theft but, if she has grounds to be suspicious, she is obliged to withdraw her profile.

Sorry about ripping into you guys but I'm well intentioned. My point is focus your energy on honest women. At least, Wyxman, despite his apologetics, seems to have met an honest woman although to what extent his lady is motivated by feelings for him as opposed to escaping the resposibilities of single parenthood in lovely Lugansk merits observation over time to determine. Meeting honest women in their home country, notice I am using the plural here, is eminently feasible and well worth the effort in my experience: just beware of how you are making the initial contact through the internet.

Richard




[

zedralf
10-16-2004, 05:13 PM
In reply to Richard's comments, yes, I agree we should focus on honest women and not dishonest women. However, I believe in my case, this is an honest woman who was trapped in a dishonest agency. Many women who are on this site just want to be married. If there are many dishonest or all dishonest agencies located near their dwelling, the choice is either to deal with these agencies or remain single for the rest of their lives. I might add that some of these agencies are controlled by the Russian mafia. In her city, which I will not name, there are close to zero honest agencies, the city is overrun by the Mafia, and women outnumber men 8 to 1.

I believe that she is honest, and just got caught up in a bad agency, that I might add, IS in fact run by the mafia. I believe this for the following reasons:

1) She admitted immediately that she had done wrong and repented. There is no need for a scammer to do this....just go on to the next victim. You can just deny it as well and just keep asking the same person for money. I asked her if she was doing this for money or love and she said she was hoping to find love, slip out of the clutches of the mafia, and get married. But, she had to do what they told her to do or else not get married at all. Plus, all the money goes to the mafia and not her, because they control the bank and the Western Union inside the bank.

2) Of course, 1) is not nearly enough. Also, she constantly begged me for 3 weeks not to discontinue correspondence with her. Why bother doing that if you are a scammer??? There are plenty of suckers out there.

3) Third, and most importantly, she won't take a dime from me. Not under any circumstances. I sent just a little money before to see if she would take it and she sent it back saying it was not hers, she did not deserve it, and would rather starve that take money from me.

Also, we have exchanged about 50 emails, not just a couple. I'm not saying to take pity on dishonest girls, I'm just saying there are some honest girls out there that get caught up with a bad agency and get taken advantage of, particularly when the girl is in her mid-20s and the agency is mafia run and this group controls half of the city. These people are mean and ruthless, and they control the girls very strictly. I know a Russian lawyer in Moscow who tells me this is so. It is the agencies and not the people who are the main problem.

I explain myself not by ego, but by fact. Just ask some of the people in Russia. The majority of the girls just want to be married, and don't want to rob anyone of their money at all.

I have visited her now, and have not been robbed of a dime, plus she is who she says she is, and is very honest. So, I suppose I have benefitted by realizing that honest people are sometimes taken into a dishonest situation and should be given a second chance if they prove their good intentions to you. If you had complete understanding of the situation, you would agree.

zedralf
10-16-2004, 07:47 PM
Here is text from the Russian lawyer----most are not being scammed by women but by the Mafia. And yes, some are honest women who are being forced to scam. They are not only forced out of the agency if they do not scam, but are also THREATENED. I forgot to mention that in my emails last month. As I have recently been in this city where she lives, it is very bad there. I believe her because I see how bad it was.


Q: Is it only Russians that are using the Internet to scam men from foreign countries or are there these Internet scams originating from other countries? If so, why is Russia being singled out?

A: Of course scammers can operate from any country, and they do!
But the point is that most Russian women are really beautiful and western men are greatly interested in them. When we talk about men being scammed by Russians, it is not the women who are the scammers but criminal organizations fronting as dating/marriage services. That is why you have be cautious and do your homework when using a service. You can find similar scams in other countries but what makes it worse in Russia is the lack of computer expertise within the police departments which makes it difficult to fight cyberspace crimes.

w1ngzer0
10-17-2004, 01:07 AM
LOL whoops i guess lack of sleep doesn't let me type correctly. Let me correct myself by saying this. I WAS SCMAED BY WORLDFRIENDS.TV

My account magically got 24.95 on my account without me knowing what worldfriends.tv was. I had an email thinking it was a phishing email. But it wasn't. Someone had actually used my CC#'s and charged my account. I contacted my bank and they are taking care of it. I have also emailed worlfriends.tv and their cash handling company and told them both what a scam worldfriends.tv is and should be shut down.

sorry for the confusion [8)]

AmericanRichardC
10-17-2004, 04:17 AM
Zedraf maintains that the girl has "the choice ... either to deal with these [scam] agencies or remain single for the rest of their lives." There is an illogic to that reasoning and it is counterfactual in at least one respect.

The illogic is that if the girl deals with such scam agencies, she'll have no chance to get married to a foreigner just as sure as if she refrains from getting listed with them in the first place. If this certainty is known by foreigners like us,it is known by the Russians even more and, therefore, if a girl signs up she must have an ulterior motive i.e. to scam. In this situation, the honest girl, faced with the stark reality that whichever route she chooses she will remain single, will choose not to list herself with any agency -- that is, if the choice dichotomy is correct.

The counterfactual element is that there are not just two choices. There are agencies not operating inside the borders of the ex-USSR that would only be too willing to post the girl's photos and advertisement on the company's website and provide them their own webpage without any element of scamming or coercion on the part of the agency either toward the client or the girl.

I don't really understand why Zedraf chooses to go to bastions of the Russian mafia to seek out girls who have an apparently deserved reputation for being corrupted (his girl possibly being excepted) rather than a venue where the odds are against meeting scammers. (No need to speculate in this forum on the motives of a single individual.) At least for the fledgling among us, Zedraf obviously not being one of that company, I would recommend initally skipping over girls from cities where the ratio of scammers to all advertised girls is high e.g. Lugansk. At least know the score before you jump from the proverbial frying pan into the fire...

Getting back to my criticism of Zedraf's statement about a girl's choice being limited putatively to only two options, I mentioned that it is counterfactual in at least one respect -- which begs the question in what other respects is it counterfactual. Isn't it obvious that most Russian girls will simply marry Russian men? They will not stay unmarried. Most Russian girls do not intend to marry foreign men and emigrate. There are a lot of rich Russian men in Moscow that a pretty Russian woman could marry and prosper with without the cultural displacement that attends emigration. Of course, material standards vis-a-vis other Russian cities can be much much better in the West (the extent to which depends on the job, social standing and wealth of the man of course) but, for many Russian, as well as other Slavic girls, leaving a country, which they often love and parting with family members to whom they have a very strong attachment, is not an easy choice either. For some other girls, posting an advertisement on the web is like playing the lottery: no one plays the lottery expecting to win the big jackpot.

I think agencies (even some legitimate ones) have committed another disservice beyond scamming: they create false illusions that Russian girls cannot find happiness in their own country and that all a Western man need do to find a new (Slavic) wife, even one 15-25 years his junior, is to send a few emails and make a quick trip over to the girl's country as if the Slavic motherland is some kind of cornucopia of girls with traditional (rather than monetary) values and as if, when you arrive there, you'll be tripping over such girls. In reality, the operating environment is not so easy for an average middle-aged Western man to negotiate and monetary aspects generally take precedence over tradition.

zedralf
10-17-2004, 11:46 AM
Richard, I appreciate and completely agree with your logic, however, using a logical argument where a female is concerned doesn't particularly make any sense to me, since females base their decisions and actions on emotions, not logic.

My purpose is not to argue a logical point--the purpose is to explain the perception out there, upon which a decision is made. As you well know, a decision is often, and yes, mistakably made through perception and not logic and reality. Particularly for a female.

The perception in this town for the women is that Russian men make bad husbands and Americans make good husbands. True or not. Also, women are greatly outnumbered, and many will in fact never marry due to this fact. Also, they are ignorant of the fact that there are good agencies out there because everything near them is bad. How should they know how many good agencies there are out there??? They simply hear and believe what their friends tell them, and the ulterior motive is to find an American and not take his money, then flee to him away from the agency behind their backs. She says many of her friends have done this. If she knows of nothing else and believes she must marry an American to be happy as her friends have told her, then she will believe she must do things this way, whether logical or not. Females are not logical, and using this reasoning to explain their motives seems a little ridiculous to me.

And no, I would never recommend choosing an agency in this town, but I must also plead ignorance, as I did not know most of the agencies in this town were bad. Also, they had her email me first and I did not choose to contact her. Yes, I was lucky not to lose money, but I believe that there are many honest girls who go to these agencies simply unaware that there are good agencies not run by the mafia. Especially in her town. Also I am just a few years older, not 10 or 15.

I do agree that one goes after the honest agencies only and stays away from the bad ones. But if you should be like me and accidentally happen to bump into an honest girl stuck in a bad agency, don't send her money, but don't dismiss her so easily. I know almost all the people in her agency want love and not money, unaware there are better ways to get it. I have living proof that not all bad agencies have nothing but bad girls in them. Some are just ignorant of the reality.

AmericanRichardC
10-18-2004, 12:10 AM
Zedralf, According to the most currently available data (1999), 911,162 Russian women got married in Russia in that year as cited by
M.B.Denisenko, Emigration from Russia According to Data of Foreign Statistics http://dmo.econ.msu.ru/demografia/Demographie/Mariages/index.html
In the same year, 11078 Russians emigrated to the United States. See Lomonsova Economics Faculty, Moscow State University, Statistics and Accounting of the Migration of Population (Moscow: MAKS Press, 2001), p. 18. To simplify matters lets assume that all 11078 were ladies that married American men through the K-1 visa process. This means that among Russian lady citizens in the Russian Federation, only 1.2% opted to get married to American men. This is the evidentiary basis for my writing that "Isn't it obvious that most Russian girls will simply marry Russian men?"

Your statement that Russian "women are greatly outnumbered, and many will in fact never marry due to this fact" is incorrect because, in the Russian Federation, it is the older cohorts of women in the 40+ age groups and increasingly above that suffer from this sex gap (and I can cite you data in nauseating detail if you insist on my proving it); there are enough younger Russian guys to go around.

You claim to have insight into inner psyche of Russian ladies with statements like the perception in this town is (for example) that "Americans make good husbands," etc. Are you sure you can speak for the perception of the population of the town? To put it kindly, you "evidence" sounds anecdotal i.e. whatever your girlfriend fed you (who may have a stake in giving you a biased impression). You can't scientifically make any of the statements of the kind that you put forward without survey research or at least structured interviews in Russian with a population cross-section.

My final remark is of an entirely different vein reflecting the tone of your comments rather than elements of substance. To put it kindly, Zedralf, you come across as being extremely patronizing to our prospective Russian brides. You maintain that "Females are not logical, and using this reasoning to explain their motives seems a little ridiculous to me." Your arguments reek of a virulent sexism that I believe no self-respecting, educated woman, be she American or Russian, would tolerate. (I didn't take issue with the Russian girl's logic, by the way, I took issue with yours!) I think you have to give them credit for the educational level they achieve and for the esteem for which they hold education and not merely consider them to be gullible and stupid. With your mindset of a false superiority, you are prime meat for being scammed! Take that warning to heart, Zedralf. Richard

zedralf
10-18-2004, 11:22 AM
Richard,

Actually, I think a woman's decision making process is vastly superior to that of a man's. And, a Russian's psyche is no different that anyone else's. I said a woman's psyche is based on emotion and man by logic, but this is not to say that logic is superior to emotion. Actually the reverse is the case. Logic itself can be proven illogical if it is applied in this world, which often is illogical itself in many ways. People are made up of intellect and emotion, and both must be taken into account when making a decision. Actually, I think woman are vastly superior to men in many ways. Man's intellect fails because most are unable to satisfy a women's emotional needs, because his supposed logic applies only in theory, and doesn't apply too well in an emotional world. Emotion is what makes the world go around. Logic is often good in theory only.

You statistics may be true or may not be true, but they do not disprove the situation in this girls city. This situation exists indepently of your statistics.

Her city's individual facts are such:
1) Total women outnumber men 8 to 1. Maybe there are more younger men, but there still seemed to be many more young women to me when I was there.
2) Many women in her city and in others flat out refuse to marry a Russian man because they are perceived as not being serious, and many in this particular city are in the Mafia. Of course more people in any country will marry more people in their particular country. That is a given. But, these girls have told me they have excluded Russian men as an option and believe there is something better out there. Of course, some women may hate Americans, but there are those that don't, and since many of the younger women have said they will not consider a Russian man, they may either go to an agency where their girlfriends have told them they have had success, or never get married.
3) I know most Russians are very proud of their country and would rather stay and marry a Russian than leave, but in her city, a lot of the girls outright want to leave. They have said this. In order to leave, it is necessary not to marry a Russian. So, once again, the option is either go to an agency nearby or never marry.

The bottom line is this....there are indeed girls who do not want to be married to Russians, and they must go to agencies to do this or will not be married, and they may not realize at first the agency is a bad one. It is not always so easy to get out and find a good one, especially if you don't have a car and there is not one near you.
You cannot conclude that all bad agencies are full of nothing but bad girls. My point was not to prove that the majority of the girls are good, or the majority of girls don't marry Russian...simply that some of them are good, and some would rather marry foreign or not at all.
And the girl I talk to is one of those people.

You can babble on with all the logic and the statistics you want, and you sould extremely intelligent, and it looks good on paper, but doesn't do much to disprove a real life situation. Real life is based on people and their emotions, not simple logic. That's right, logic is simple, therefore a woman's psyche can be said to be more complex and more superior to a man's. My mindset is not that I am superior to women..it is that women are superior and men are too stupid and "intellectual" to understand a women's emotion needs. Emotion is the foundation of action, while intellect is good often on paper only.

And I'm sure your logic doesn't work so well with the ladies. You sound like one of those guys who spends money on a lady and then wonders why she tries to take you for everything you've got. Women want to have their emotional needs met. Most men can't do it. If you fulfull her emotional needs, you are her knight in shining armor. Every woman, no matter from what country, dreams of such a man since she is a little girl. When old men try to go after 20 year olds for sex and a marriage unhappy for the girl, or try to buy them things to win their love, no wonder some women who are not honest try to scam them. Men like that have no respect for women. They key is to simply to be caring, and gentle, understanding, and supportive to her feelings and emotions. Men don't understand women at all. And, emotion is superior to logic, not the other way around.

The bottom line is, if you were to talk with me, and not try to infer how I am toward women by a few simple sentences, you would find that the fact is you are fodder for scams and not me. Your keen mind and logic will do you a great disservice. You seem to be too involved in intellect and not in emotion, too smug and self-involved. The key is too always look outside of yourself, and live for the women rather than for yourself, and try to understand their emotional base. Your logic will not help you with this, and you assume logic is superior, when it is not.

I HATE TO DO THIS, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO EMPLOY LOGIC FOR A SECOND. The fact is, I WOULD BET ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY you have been scammed at least once before, if not many times, while I am looked at as a knight in shining armor to a girl I accidentally met who happened to be from a bad agency who herself is a very good person. She would rather starve that scam me.
Therefore, logic would dictate that something in your logic is flawed, because your assumed superior knowledge of Russian women has gotten you scammed, while I have not been scammed. What exists, exists, regardless of whether it can be scientifically proven. I don't need to scientifically prove or statistically prove anything. There are good girls in bad agencies, believe me. Any they just want to be married. And not to Russians. I know her and some of her friends can tell you it is true. Give me a break. I'm out of here. I shouldn't even be on this site. I haven't even been scammed.

Men and women hurt each other needlessly because they don't understand each other. If men would only understand a woman and a woman a man, these scams would ultimately not occur. Men and women need to love and understand each other. Men who have been scammed, are ultimately partly to blame for what has happened, because you reap what you sow. Men, go for it, try to find the right woman, and understand her. Stop being so afraid of being scammed. Don't send money, mind you, but don't be afraid to take chances on your emotions. As the Russians say, One who does not take chances does not get to drink the champagne.

I'm not going to respond to Richard's pointless gibberish anymore. Intellectualism strays too much from reality. It's why all those science geeks miss out on life...they are among the brightest, but they don't understand anything, simply how they think they can prove a theory. What nonsense.

zedralf
10-18-2004, 08:30 PM
For such an articulate man, your thought processes are so surprisingly simple. Such objectivity which may be useful in a science experiment is so useless in this world which happens to be subjective.

I just caught your sentence which I did not catch before, saying you weren't questioning her logic, but questioning mine. Obviously. The point I was trying to make was that you try to attack this whole thing with logic, while a woman does not operate on a logical basis. While you infer this to mean something less than logic, it is actually more complex. Using logic is far too simple to attack a situation with a woman.

I hope you express yourself to a woman better than in this way, but obviously not, because I have a hunch you have been burnt before pretty badly. And a logical argument is not necessary to prove my point, because this is not a science experiment, and it is possible to be correct in such an assumption without having numerous hard facts and useless statistics to illustrate a point. A certain situation can even exist without ANY evidence to back it up, Mr. Scientist. And I'm sure I am right. I know you have been badly burnt before. And I have absolutely no proof. But I'm right.

I just hope for your sake, when you relate to a woman you may see that there is more than just simple logic. Women relate to MORE than logic, not LESS. Since you prefer to speak only in logic, perhaps you cannot see this, and perhaps objectivity and logic is superior to other thinking, but this is true in the scientific community only. Women my age really hate pompous older men who think they know everything. You are obviously quite bit older than me, but I think you would be wise enough to realize younger women hate this pompous, judgmental jibberish.

Therefore, the whole point here is not that women are inferior, quite the opposite. Your argument is too simple for such a situation. Logic is simple and too objective. I don't need to prove my facts scientifically or otherwise. These are simply the thoughts and feelings of a woman and some of her friends in her town. They exist, and justify themselves by their existence. This is no science experiment. Forgive me for repeating myself, but your argument is irritating and your understanding and communication skills are elementary at best. Sure, your logic is top notch, but useless in this situation, as the situation concerns a relationship between a man and a woman which commands understanding and communication, not a simple minded logical argument. In your very eloquent words and well thought out objectivity you mask an extreme lack of subjectivity which is necessary in such a conversation, and may be one of the reasons why you have obviously have been scammed before. Women prefer emotion over intellect, because emotion is more complex and meaningful, not less complex. Emotion is intellect in action. Intellect is just a theory that has not been practiced. You may talk all you want to refute it, but in all your words, you make no point, you simply try to prove some kind of scientific theory, which is useful only in the "lab", and not on the "field" of life.

Someone so self-absorbed in intellect, assuming that I mean to say intellect and logic is better than emotion, has no idea what he is talking about. And, being self-absorbed in intellect, there is no way you can understand women, because you are too simple to understand emotion. Emotion, more simple that intellect??? NO!!!

I will pound this into your brain one more time....

INTELLECT IS SIMPLE THEORY THAT HAS NOT BEEN PUT INTO PRACTICE.
EMOTION IS INTELLECT IN ACTION.
EMOTION IS FAR SUPERIOR TO INTELLECT.

Those who use eloquent words to express their intellect, and particularly those with the mind of a scientist or a dreaded engineer, or a computer geek, exhibit true ignorance on the subject of emotion. And they wonder why they never score with women. Don't understand emotion, and don't understand it is superior, then you don't understand women at all. Therefore, I bet you have been burned before. Don't want to be burned again??? Try to learn emotion and you will learn about women. Most men are intellectually based and have no clue about women. The secret is emotion--intellect in action--and it is superior.

Damn scientists. Their simplicity of thought is so irritating. They appear to be so knowledgable and they believe themselves be more knowledgable then others, but they know much less than they realize. And even more irritating is that they think their scientific method of hypothesis followed by hard proof is so superior in a world that is more complex than that. Existence is often independent of whether it can be proven or not.

A man who can understand emotion and realizes it is more complex, more superior, and more powerful than intellect is a man who has true wisdom. The others might as well just stay in the "lab", because YOU'RE NOT GETTING THE GIRL!!!!!!!!!!

THERE ARE GOOD GIRLS IN BAD AGENCIES!!! THEY ARE NOT ALL BAD!!! Doesn't have to be proven...the fact exists independently of simple logical proof!! Girls in bad agencies have chosen love over money and they don't require logical proof as to why they would do so.

Instead of hurting each other, men and women should try to understand each other. First, try to understand why the hurting is taking place. Then, try to understand each other so they may love each other and not hurt each other any more. Having such a site as this is good, as it protects people from giving away their money, but it is bad, as it perpetuates a hatred and misunderstanding of women, and makes men paranoid of being scammed, further distancing them from the women, while their ultimate goal is to become closer to a woman. They defeat themselves.

In your weakness is your strength waiting to be realized.

AmericanRichardC
10-19-2004, 12:26 AM
Zedralf, Perhaps we have moved beyond the purposes of a forum like this with our discourse, which increasingly manifests personal overtones. Through this site, there is not much point commenting on philosophical issues like the relationship between emotion and intellect. This forum isn?t ?Richard v. Zedraf ? Man of Reason v. Man of Emotion? and, if it were, I doubt whether it would have much of a readership.

However, it would be of interest for everybody -- I think -- to know the city about which you know so much. Of course, there are always exceptions to general rules: like Russian girls generally marry Russian men in Russia. Kherson, Ukraine, for instance, is reported to have an imbalance in the female to the male population to the detriment of the latter. The reason for this I understand is that the men went away to work in other locales. So to which city do you refer? Is there a real need for you to keep its identity a secret? Wouldn't forum members the world over benefit from knowing its identity: either to avoid its scam agencies there on the one hand or to benefit from the high young women to young man ratio on the other? Or would your girlfriend's safety and security be jeopardized by the mafia?

Of course, you know your lady personally and she too may be an exception. On that score, you know better than anyone else.

I think that you really can't infer how I relate to ladies on the basis of how I expressed my conclusions concerning an issue of fact ("Do Russian ladies overwhelmingly marry Russian men?") on this website. That's illogical (sorry to have used a word so odious to you) and does me a disservice.

It sounds like you have a lot of aggression (a curious hatred of science?) in you that you're releasing in my direction when you use an expression like "pound it into your brain" or make a scornful reference like "Mr. Scientist" or ?babbling on.? (I'm a lawyer, not a scientist, by the way.) Such vituperative only detracts from your argument. I took issue with certain statements you made and certain conclusions you drew, and some flaws in logic -- not with you personally. You may be a top-flight lad. I don?t know. I don?t know you.

I have made 11 trips to the ex-USSR in the last three years. I almost always have had a good time over there and I have a lot of practical experience. I really put my university Russian to good use in that regard as I am pretty much able to discuss anything in Russian -- a skill that is a great advantage and that helps to avoid a lot of difficulties. (I don't claim to speak for girls from any particular location in the ex-USSR, however.) I'm lucky to have met some really nice girls. I have a lot of choices for a life partner --maybe too many as it makes for some hard decision-making.

By the way, you would have lost that bet, had we shaken hands on it, about my being scammed. I never have been.

I don't think, by the way, this is a website just for people who have been scammed. It is at least partly a website for sharing ideas and experiences that may help people avoid being scammed in the future or simply for advice to better enjoy their stay in a CIS-country. People with experience or more experience can help those new on board (or simply with less experience) searching for companionship in the ex-USSR.

If you find my comments without merit, no need to respond to them. Don?t waste your time. Perhaps someone else will profit from what I have written and that would be reward enough for having written them.

Richard

Risha
10-26-2004, 01:25 PM
Dear men, I'm Russian, my husband is American, we have got acquainted through the Internet too.
I advise for you if you have met the girl which can kindle your heart, you'll plan your meeting as soon as possible.

If your first meeting will be in her city, it is the best variant. If you plan meeting in the other city or other country, then you have to understand her and pay her residing and her transporting too. You can to buy trip for her by the Internet and tickets too. Also you can tell, that you will give money for her at our meeting. I think, if the girl is right and she really wants to see you she will find money for some time and after your meeting she can return this money.Many women have no free money for trip. Only when you will start to legalize documents for fiancee-visa , you can start to help her and to send money.
Remember, she is your future wife. Good luck for you!




Risha

blackrose
04-10-2005, 02:18 AM
Zedralph
I have one as you mentioned.It seemed at first it was headed for a scam.She sent many letters and photos.Some obvious form letters.I think i got behind the BS though she kind of backed off.I then laied it to her knowing what was going on and i would help her if she would talk to me as real person.She e mails back refusing help.But says she started this as scam but truly fell in love and couldnt do it.She said it was obvious i was not going to send money.She is actually a very sweet girl with nothing better to do a hard life and nobody that actually cares for her.We now communicate but she writes for real broken english and all.She knows i will not send money but loves to have someone that will write to her as real person and show her some respect........ Jimmy the rose