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Anthony Ferrara
02-12-2008, 06:44 AM
Hey again guy's!
Have any of you been aware of the growing Sex Slave Trade? It is becomeing a World Wide Problem!! Many Women from accross the World are kidnaped, beaten and threatened with Death if they will not prostitute themselves for pimp's! This is a Terrible fact of Life for many unknowning and innocent Women and many of these Women come from the Ukraine and Russia, also from Belarus and Muldova. Many are Never Seen again and it is like they simply disappear into the World! I have watched with Anger many documentaries about this problem and what various government's are doing to stop it but it is all not enough, Well, not yet anyway's!!!!:(
I actualy spoke to a Russian customer once a few year's ago about this and he had the Arrogance and Audasity to tell me these Women wanted to do this, I asked him if he was on Drug's? He of course did not like my question and then I asked him why he has a problem with the Truth? Well as you all may have guessed by now he never answered my last question!! Well if any one here Wishes to watch a movie about one young Woman I will find out the frre movie site that it is on, I watched it fully and I was Heart Broken because it is so True! Well chat on this more if anyone Wishes to!!

Sincerely,

Tone

Anthony Ferrara
02-12-2008, 06:54 AM
Ohh and P.S.

If anyone tell's you that this problem is exagerated, that more than 100,000 Women each year are made Sexual Prisoner's they need to contact General Powell of the United States Government! He has put increaseing pressure on eastern block countries to stop this problem so much so that he has threatened to take away the financial aid to Ukraine and Russia, Well you know that money talk's so now they are getting serious about this epidemic but still every day thousand's of Women disappear without a trace and are Sold into Slavery!! Do you know that the average price for a Woman in this trade for a pimp to purchase them is only $700.00 USD?

Again Sincerely,

Tone

swede
02-12-2008, 02:13 PM
Cit. Tone:

"I actualy spoke to a Russian customer once a few year's ago about this and he had the Arrogance and Audasity to tell me these Women wanted to do this, I asked him if he was on Drug's?"

The sad fact is, that until recently the women were treated this way inside FSU also. Sexual services were a common currency, and if f.ex. a woman tried to get a job, she would in many cases be expected to perform such for her future employer.

I find it as revolting as you do Tone, that's why I started the topic psychobabbling to try to find deeper answers. Sextourism and like activities are as big a part of the problem as scamming.

Whether psychb. will lead anywhere is unceratin, but we got to do what we can.

Goddiejens
02-12-2008, 05:08 PM
Well, guys,

wherever money can be made there is business. And business means to sell products or service and make money by exploting other people. Explotation of human beings by other human beings is the contents of the classist society we are living in. The SU and countries behind the wall before 1989 had no pimps, no problem with children prostitution, no problem with children pornography ... they only had some easy going girls who were interested in moving out to the West by with special preference marrying a guy from the West.

After the wall broke down and corrupt functioneers of the ex communist state leading party cadres took over the power and welcomed the big companies, trusts and banks by sell out whatever would made rich their clans, then FSU and East Germany and so on faced very fast a prostitution problem, increase of Aids and drug consumption, street children problems and children prostitution and children pornography ... in East Germany the more violent pimps from West Germany took over the red light areas in the East German cities.

It is true, most of the women there were "imported" from Poland, Czech Republic. Europe's largest street redlight area started on the Czech side of the border between Dresden/Germany in direction to Prague, and that was also a "paradise" for pedophiles!

Pimps also organised that FSU women were hired to work as "waitress" or "model". After arrival of these women in the redlight district the pimps took away their passports, they violated these women and forced them to work as prostitutes in any place. Some "clients" helped some of these ladies to escape. The police did nothing else than deport them because of illegal presence in the country, and this deportation is done so fast that the pimps are not damaged by all that.

Some others of these ladies are married, mostly managed in Denmark with a poor guy who receives some money and does not even know his "wife" ... it is only for legalization of their status to stay in the country. In some cases such ladies continue to work as prostitutes but in a more independent way later on. They see how much money they can make by that and get used to it.

No government is really interested in solving this problem. Sex has become a product to sell and to buy on the market! Rich managers and politicians and judges and police chiefs are corrupt and often the pimps' mafia makes them dependent ... some pics of Mr Director with a girlie of 14 years naked in the whirlpool and this Mr Director is not able anymore to do anything against pimps... .

On the other hand, I do not believe the story of stupid well-looking girls in poor areas who have no clue about the risk they take accepting such an "employment contract" to work abroad as "waitress". Also poor people there watch tv and listen to the radio and are aware of this problem.

In case of minors and children it is abduction and really kidnapping. Adult persons are responsible for what they do!

For my opinion, only replacing capitalism by socialism/communism will solve this problem definitely. As long as business and profits are the greatest values of the society we will have to face such problems with all perversions and tragedies and impacts.

Goddiejens

swede
02-12-2008, 05:21 PM
Cit. Jens:

"For my opinion, only replacing capitalism by socialism/communism will solve this problem definitely. As long as business and profits are the greatest values of the society we will have to face such problems with all perversions and tragedies and impacts."

Sorry to have to say it, but this is a classical example of a beliefsystem. It's all well taken as an idealistic ideology, but you haven't got one shred of evidence for your postulate. All you have is your own naive and blind faith in some system, which in practise has shown its shortcomings (just as capitalism has shown ITS shortcomings).

What do we get next? Jesusfreaks?

All the saints save us from prophets and missionaries.

PS As I said before, the women were treated liked "beeb" in FSU. This is firsthand evidence, I have from several sources, and it didn't start with the fall of socialism.

PeopleSmoks
02-14-2008, 01:40 AM
I can tie this all into the FSU/MOB scamming and seeming lack of "real" women. The sex slavery trade in the FSU has very seriously effected the FSU dating scene. Stories abound of women who are conned to leaving their homes and find themselves in very bad situations. It's been documented that various factions of organized crime are involved, as well as some sleazy individuals. The Russian mob is known to dupe innocent girls into coming to the US, taking their passports and the next thing they know, they are SOLD to some scumbag.

It's been said that Turks and many arabs covet Ukraine and slavic women, but women of any race or nationality are at risk in some way. It is a big problem!

quote:For my opinion, only replacing capitalism by socialism/communism will solve this problem definitely. As long as business and profits are the greatest values of the society we will have to face such problems with all perversions and tragedies and impacts.
Jens, I have to agree with swede on what he said about communism/socialism NOT being the answer. As I posted on the psychobabbling thread, this philosophy can ONLY work if all agree to it. That will never happen in our lifetimes. Lenin's ideology was great, but it's application has always been flawwed.

Train returns

Goddiejens
02-16-2008, 10:21 AM
Hi Swede and Peoplesmoks,

nice to read that 70 years of social development without such evils like hunger, extreme poverty, being without health insurance and without pension safety system, unemployment ... for you had only been a "beliefsystem". You ignore the classist character of the society, guys. You ignore the matter of fact of explotation. You ignore that the capitalist system has been unable to solve only one of the global mankind problems.

The marxist-leninist parties have nothing to do with "beliefsystem" or religious sects. They are very dedicated to study the social reality and find a way to change the world so that not profit making but welfare of all people is the central value of the society.

Well, you only see the "biest character" of the human beings. So you might just identify yourself with the "wolfes" in this "wolfe capitalism". From this position you cannot change anything in the present society. You can only express that you like some things and that you dislike some other things. But you cannot really move anything to find solutions for groups of people which you may be would like to help.

Goddiejens

swede
02-16-2008, 01:27 PM
Sorry I have to repeat it: Being against communism isn't being for capitalism. I believe I have made that clear several times. Retoric isn't going home.

I visited Poland before the Sovjet influence was over, and I SAW the hordes of homeless beggars. I saw the milis at every street corner. I saw the empty shops. I saw the run down factories, where the workers had to use technology 40-50 years outdated. I saw the scyhigh energy costs, so people lived in almost freezeboxes. I saw the farmers and collectives being unable to sell their products (even if a great demand existed inside and outside Poland), because the government-directed sales-organisations were led by incompetent party 'beeb'lickers.
I saw the paranoia in the common people.

Sure, it was a beautiful system.

PeopleSmoks
02-16-2008, 08:17 PM
quote:The marxist-leninist parties have nothing to do with "beliefsystem" or religious sects. They are very dedicated to study the social reality and find a way to change the world so that not profit making but welfare of all people is the central value of the society.
Ahhhh! But it IS a beliefsystem, and for it to succeed, ALL involved MUST believe in it. As I have posted in psycho-b, I find the ideal and concept to be quite intriguing and wonderful were it possible, but as soon as one becomes the "leader", which is inevitable considering the vast number of weak minded in the world, all equality is then lost, and true socialism along with it.

quote:Well, you only see the "biest character" of the human beings. So you might just identify yourself with the "wolfes" in this "wolfe capitalism". From this position you cannot change anything in the present society. You can only express that you like some things and that you dislike some other things. But you cannot really move anything to find solutions for groups of people which you may be would like to help.
The problem is that this "biest character" is today's reality. I personally am a bit of a dreamer, just as you appear to be. However, I do have at least one foot firmly planted in the reality that what true communism/socialism involves simply can not take place in present day world society. As I have said, ALL must abide by such, or what is the alternative??? Do you plan to FORCE compliance with the state??? Sounds a bit like Uncle Joe Stalin's mindset.

So, please tell me... Just HOW would you institute such a massive socio-economic world wide change without building a massive army, nuclear weapons and "conquering" the world in order to spread your good ideals??? Tough question huh? Yes, I have many questions and few answers. I claim no special abilities my friend.

quote:I visited Poland before the Sovjet influence was over, and I SAW the hordes of homeless beggars. I saw the milis at every street corner. I saw the empty shops. I saw the run down factories, where the workers had to use technology 40-50 years outdated. I saw the scyhigh energy costs, so people lived in almost freezeboxes. I saw the farmers and collectives being unable to sell their products (even if a great demand existed inside and outside Poland), because the government-directed sales-organisations were led by incompetent party 'beeb'lickers.
I saw the paranoia in the common people.
As we have opportunity to discuss elsewhere, the basic ideology behind communism isn't the problem as I see it. The problem is human greed, and all it takes is one Joe Stalin to corrupt the whole thing until it becomes what it did.

Train returns

swede
02-16-2008, 11:26 PM
Cit PeopleS:

"Do you plan to FORCE compliance with the state??? Sounds a bit like Uncle Joe Stalin's mindset."

Well said PeopleS,

it's exactly my point also, that any ideological system (as f. ex. a religion or a political system) at humanity's present state will need force to be accepted generally. As I've said several times, we will "for our own good" be lead at gunpoint to see things, as some powercrazed dictator wants us to.

Most of us are as individuals far too "confused" or unaware to be able to recognize any truth, a possible correct ideology may contain. Even less so to accept it. Whatever such an ideology will turn out to be like.

This is why I have suggested a search for methods leading individual people to more personal integrity, before we can even start thinking about utopias. And that explains, why it's difficult, if not hopeless, to give any absolutes now. The idea is more like a process, than a ready set of finished answers.

You have formerly talked about evolution as the answer, but I have a very small hope, that we can help awareness on its way by an effort by ourselves.

PeopleSmoks
02-17-2008, 01:20 PM
quote:This is why I have suggested a search for methods leading individual people to more personal integrity, before we can even start thinking about utopias...You have formerly talked about evolution as the answer, but I have a very small hope, that we can help awareness on its way by an effort by ourselves.
If I understand correctly, you seek to educate the masses in a purely non-violent way, and assuming you are able to reach the farthest corners of civilization with such teachings, the first problem is to overcome the individuals preset programming in order for him/her to be able to accept such teachings.

And the farthest corners aren't the real problem. Third and fourth worlders may be more excepting than the New York to London power broker. Such a change in attitudes would be a slow one to be sure, but isn't that what evolution is? A slow change taking centuries, if not millenia, as opposed to mutation? What the casual sci-fi enthusiast must understand is that mutation doesn't mean turning into some hideous freak or having "super" powers and becoming X-Men. Mutation is merely jumping forward and skipping the normally slow and tedious evolutionary process and nothing more.

Train returns

Anthony Ferrara
02-17-2008, 02:20 PM
Hello Swede and Peoplesmok!

Well, this seem's to be a rather complicated on goeing discussion, Humm, if I may add alittle of my idea's? I Hope not to be boreing!
Hummm, this subject I think of failed government's and various process's that simply look good on paper but do not work!! I will trow the first rock at a glass house-Mine!!
Here in America for perffect example is a government that seem's to be confused and out of control! They cannot conduct much of anything with effiency or prior notice to the public, Humm, another form of Socialism? Maybe!? I have to admit that we the Middle Class "The back bone of this country" are being taxed out of exsistance!! Like I have said for many year's we have Freedom here? Hey, do not pay all of your taxes and see how much Freedom we really have!! [V]:(
Well I think you get my point, especialy now that this is a election year for a new president and I am Sad and Saorry to see our choices-Yuk, Yuk! I can see no one at this time who is worthy to be our New and Improved President and the party line's do not matter, they are all telling us what they think we want to hear!!!! Too bad that there is not another President Reagan to choose![V]
Well guy's, this is only one of my many opinion's regarding the short comeing's of our government here in America!! Ohh and by the way I am not anti American the exact opposite actuely is True! I Love this country and it's diversity of people and cultures and idea's-Truely!!:)
I some times wonder if our fore Father's are looking down on us with disgust and amazement at our current status!? Well, if I were them I certainly would be!! I think that if we could all take alittle from Socialism, Democratic, Republican, Liberalism we may have a Great Beginning! Like I alway's have said, if it is not broke, do not try to fix it but improve on it!!!;)
Well, this is my opinion for today on this subject! It is not the People who do not work, it is our Government's that do not work!!!!


Sincerely,

Tone

PeopleSmoks
02-17-2008, 03:18 PM
quote:Ohh and by the way I am not anti American
Don't worry Tone, I don't think the FBI or Secret Service is tracking this site toooooo closely! But then again.... Anyway, the thing about the system of goverment we have here is that at the time of it's inception, most of the known world was lead by some form of dictatorship, and still is, although more cerimonially. Even swede's homeland still has a King and Queen.;)

And despite the taxes, we do have many freedoms that others do and many don't. Sure we can't scream "FIRE" in a packed movie theatre, but you can stand on any street corner and tell anyone who will listen that you think George W. is great, or that you think he's a flaming turd and not dissappear the next day.[:0][8D]

As for socialism in the US, yes it exists. Social Security, Welfare, workers comp, unemplyoment comp are all socialist style programs intended to help those who CAN'T make it on their own. Unfortunately, there is widespread abuse of these programs.[V]

I loved Ron Reagan!!! Okay, trickle down economics didn't work in the, but it did look good on paper. The problem there was the greed of the corporate execs, who took the breaks Reagan gave them, and padded their own pockets instead of passing it along to the workers as the plan had been. Enron anyone???

To our current political outlook, I'm sorry, but John McCain leads my pack of contenders. Obama? This country isn't ready to elect a non-WASP president, regardless of his ideology. Hillary Clinton? Bill actually put her in charge of the health care issue 12 years ago... We're still waiting. And to those who will quickly say, "...well the Republicans controlled Congress..." (my dad), I say, for the first two years of the Clinton White House, the Democrats held both houses and NOTHING got done!!!

Train returns

Anthony Ferrara
02-17-2008, 03:49 PM
Agreed Peoplesmok!!!! Ditto and Ditto again!

I think that the Democrat's are closer in belief's to a Socialistic society however they Never can seem to enable it to work in Reality!! And the Clinton's, Humm can you say Adultery? Deceptive behavior? Disloyalty? Humm, I think this country has had enough of the Clinton regime!!!! I think the most important issue's are where has our Honor, Integrity and Moral's gone to? We need to get back our back bone and I have to admit my vote was alittle partial to Mit Romney even though his Faith is Morman yet he believes in a One Woman Marriage unlike the other heathen's!! I can only say this, the Man made sense and alot of it and he was consistant and True to his form, I cannot Help but Admire a Man whose Conviction's are Ethical and Honorable!!!![^] Humm, Imagine a first meet between Romney and Putin? I would pay to see the fire work's that certainly would develope at that meeting but I think they could become allies, Humm, the Possibilities!!??[:p]
Well I Hope I have not bored anyone!!

Sincerely,

Tone

Goddiejens
02-17-2008, 04:05 PM
quote:Originally posted by swede

Sorry I have to repeat it: Being against communism isn't being for capitalism. I believe I have made that clear several times. Retoric isn't going home.

I visited Poland before the Sovjet influence was over, and I SAW the hordes of homeless beggars. I saw the milis at every street corner. I saw the empty shops. I saw the run down factories, where the workers had to use technology 40-50 years outdated. I saw the scyhigh energy costs, so people lived in almost freezeboxes. I saw the farmers and collectives being unable to sell their products (even if a great demand existed inside and outside Poland), because the government-directed sales-organisations were led by incompetent party 'beeb'lickers.
I saw the paranoia in the common people.

Sure, it was a beautiful system.


You are right, Swede,

Poland had not a "bautiful" system. The leading party there was very corrupt. Revisionism destroyed the communist character of that party. Bourgeois elements took it over completely just in the 50ies. The cooperative farms had no chance there, they were not supported anymore by the state. And the agriculture there based only on small farmers, "minifundios", subsistence instead of existence!

So the country was not able to provide enough food for its own people. In 1980 Poland was bankrupt and not able to pay the credits taken in the West. The dominating clicque only kept itself on power by martial law.

The basis of the solidarity union was not against socialism. But they hated the way they were treaten without any life quality and without food and satifaction of basic needs by the corrupt dominating clicque. The USSR sold gold and diamonds in masses on the world market to pay the debts of Poland in those years... .

But Poland was not the example for all the Eastern countries.

Goddiejens

Goddiejens
02-17-2008, 04:28 PM
quote:Originally posted by PeopleSmoks


quote:The marxist-leninist parties have nothing to do with "beliefsystem" or religious sects. They are very dedicated to study the social reality and find a way to change the world so that not profit making but welfare of all people is the central value of the society.
Ahhhh! But it IS a beliefsystem, and for it to succeed, ALL involved MUST believe in it. As I have posted in psycho-b, I find the ideal and concept to be quite intriguing and wonderful were it possible, but as soon as one becomes the "leader", which is inevitable considering the vast number of weak minded in the world, all equality is then lost, and true socialism along with it.

quote:Well, you only see the "biest character" of the human beings. So you might just identify yourself with the "wolfes" in this "wolfe capitalism". From this position you cannot change anything in the present society. You can only express that you like some things and that you dislike some other things. But you cannot really move anything to find solutions for groups of people which you may be would like to help.
The problem is that this "biest character" is today's reality. I personally am a bit of a dreamer, just as you appear to be. However, I do have at least one foot firmly planted in the reality that what true communism/socialism involves simply can not take place in present day world society. As I have said, ALL must abide by such, or what is the alternative??? Do you plan to FORCE compliance with the state??? Sounds a bit like Uncle Joe Stalin's mindset.

So, please tell me... Just HOW would you institute such a massive socio-economic world wide change without building a massive army, nuclear weapons and "conquering" the world in order to spread your good ideals??? Tough question huh? Yes, I have many questions and few answers. I claim no special abilities my friend.

quote:I visited Poland before the Sovjet influence was over, and I SAW the hordes of homeless beggars. I saw the milis at every street corner. I saw the empty shops. I saw the run down factories, where the workers had to use technology 40-50 years outdated. I saw the scyhigh energy costs, so people lived in almost freezeboxes. I saw the farmers and collectives being unable to sell their products (even if a great demand existed inside and outside Poland), because the government-directed sales-organisations were led by incompetent party 'beeb'lickers.
I saw the paranoia in the common people.
As we have opportunity to discuss elsewhere, the basic ideology behind communism isn't the problem as I see it. The problem is human greed, and all it takes is one Joe Stalin to corrupt the whole thing until it becomes what it did.

Train returns


Hi PeopleSmoks,

Marx or Lenin never formulated "Believe in me! I am your godness now! We can make it!"

They analized the essence of the human civilization and society. They found out why there is so much explotation, who are the explotating and who are the exploted people. And they formulated a scientific (!) theory how the working class can take over the power and terminate with explotation of human beings by other human beings. And well, there are no sweet words of believing in democracy, Marx and Lenin formulate clear about "proletarian dictatorship".

Take Lenin as leader, take Stalin as leader, take Fidel Castro as leader ... all these leaders were good ones and achieved a very lot for their countries and people. We only need to compare how the broad masses of the people lived before the revolutions and 20 years after the victory of the revolution. And I do not speak of paradises after dying, I speak of realities in the lifes of many millions of people.

Well, dreams of a better world stay to be pure illusions without fighting in organised form with many other same interested people for this better world. The Red Army changed big parts of the world by fighting and defending the USSR, the "rebels of 1968" smoked a lot of drugs and changed nothing in the world but dreamed and rottened in the existing systems. Of course, it has well to do with forcing the bourgoisy to accept what the proletarian revolution dictates. Look how bloody the bourgeoisy fights peaceful manifestations, how much repression the people face in many countries only because some big clans of mining and other companies and banks from US or wherever rob the natural ressources and want to keep the high level of profits without mind of how violent and criminal the used methods are. There is only one question: Are you on the side of the people there? Or are you on the side of the repressing regimes on behalf of the big trusts and banks?

I see what Hugo Chavez is doing. He tries his very best to come to a socialist society there in a really peaceful way. But without army it is not possible, his enemies from CIA via Columbia's gangsters to the oligarchy in Venezuela put thousands of death squads and armed gangs in his country ... can you defeat them without arms? Chavez goes the strict way of democracy but they show him that democracy is not an important value of the bourgeoisy, only profit and private property is the value of the bourgeoisy there... .

The other posting, well, I answered above.

Sincerely,

Goddiejens

swede
02-17-2008, 04:32 PM
Cit. PeopleS:

"If I understand correctly, you seek to educate the masses in a purely non-violent way"

You know, I can be intolerably pedantic about my language, because many expressions are so loaded with extrameanings. So if I can avoid the association to totalitarian systems "educating the masses", ..... yes.

But my whole concept of change lies more at the level of pragmatism and personal demonstration. When you start "educating" at mass level, it's usually a forced process. Learning reading, writing and mathematics is actually also forced. What I want to do is more like somebody starts learning, maybe even showing positive results, which can inspire others.

Though personally a pacifist, I consider pacifism as a beliefsystem. It has never shown any especially provable value, and I can still think of some situations, where violence is the only answer. Hitler's third reich f.ex., where it was justified to make resistance against his system. So I wouldn't say, that the "mass education" necessarily should be non-violent. But I'm rather certain, that any integrated person would be less prone to using violence, when it's not needed.
(Spanking Olgas doesn't count).

What I meant with a chosen change is the possibility of using free will and a measure of selfdiscipline. Precisely as with learning anything else.

Cit. Tone:

"I some times wonder if our fore Father's are looking down on us with disgust and amazement at our current status!? Well, if I were them I certainly would be!! I think that if we could all take alittle from Socialism, Democratic, Republican, Liberalism we may have a Great Beginning! Like I alway's have said, if it is not broke, do not try to fix it but improve on it!!!
Well, this is my opinion for today on this subject! It is not the People who do not work, it is our Government's that do not work!!!!"

With my limited knowledge of politics, it's my impression, that the american constitution is quite sane. But it's also my impression, that a lot of the last 50 years of adminstrations have done their best to neglect it.

As I see it, fundamentally three groups exist in society. The alpha fe/males; the critical independants (true liberals f.ex.) and the sheepwalkers. The sheepwalkers can be decent, or if they have recieved dictatorcrazed messages about blood and gore, they can be devils. But usually they don't initiate more problems than smallscale scamming and greed on their own. The idea of making politics more a question of separate situations onstead of a stonehard party-line thing could be useful.

Cit PeopleS:

"Even swede's homeland still has a King and Queen."

I'm all for constitutional monarchy. They are harmless, and as entertainment less mentally disruptive than soap-operas. And contrary to presidents, they don't seem to run off with half the national treasure from time to time.

"but you can stand on any street corner and tell anyone who will listen that you think George W. is great, or that you think he's a flaming turd and not dissappear the next day."

In the system Jens (sofar very vaguely) has suggested, this would not be an option.

Cit Tone:

"Well I Hope I have not bored anyone!!"

Don't worry about that. If PeopleS and I can get away with it, so can you.

Goddiejens
02-17-2008, 04:46 PM
quote:Originally posted by Anthony Ferrara

Hello Swede and Peoplesmok!

Well, this seem's to be a rather complicated on goeing discussion, Humm, if I may add alittle of my idea's? I Hope not to be boreing!
Hummm, this subject I think of failed government's and various process's that simply look good on paper but do not work!! I will trow the first rock at a glass house-Mine!!
Here in America for perffect example is a government that seem's to be confused and out of control! They cannot conduct much of anything with effiency or prior notice to the public, Humm, another form of Socialism? Maybe!? I have to admit that we the Middle Class "The back bone of this country" are being taxed out of exsistance!! Like I have said for many year's we have Freedom here? Hey, do not pay all of your taxes and see how much Freedom we really have!! [V]:(
Well I think you get my point, especialy now that this is a election year for a new president and I am Sad and Saorry to see our choices-Yuk, Yuk! I can see no one at this time who is worthy to be our New and Improved President and the party line's do not matter, they are all telling us what they think we want to hear!!!! Too bad that there is not another President Reagan to choose![V]
Well guy's, this is only one of my many opinion's regarding the short comeing's of our government here in America!! Ohh and by the way I am not anti American the exact opposite actuely is True! I Love this country and it's diversity of people and cultures and idea's-Truely!!:)
I some times wonder if our fore Father's are looking down on us with disgust and amazement at our current status!? Well, if I were them I certainly would be!! I think that if we could all take alittle from Socialism, Democratic, Republican, Liberalism we may have a Great Beginning! Like I alway's have said, if it is not broke, do not try to fix it but improve on it!!!;)
Well, this is my opinion for today on this subject! It is not the People who do not work, it is our Government's that do not work!!!!


Sincerely,

Tone


Hi Anthony,

the middle class is not the backbone of any country. The working classes produce the goods and give the service. They are paid in salary but work for much more so that there is created a lot of profit finally.

The middle class people want to be as rich as the upper class people. But they do not have the political or economic power. The power in such an imperialist state like USA is clearly in the hands of some clans who are owners of the big trusts and banks. They do not care of middle class, they plunder also the insurance and safety funds of the middle class ... hey, you do not live in democracy (which is only a form of dominance), you live in a highly developed capitalism (which is the essence of the society in the USA).

So in effect big parts of the middle class are expropriated and get bankrupt plundered by the trusts and banks. They do never get as rich as the upper class, they get poor like the poor proletarians there who only can sell their manpower to the capitalists. They like or they dislike it, the society is based on mechanisms.

Your government works with very violent and just pure terrorist methods to rob the petrol and gaz ressources in Asia and in the countries where the muslims live. Bush started a kind of World War 3 at 9/11 when the CIA convenced a good part of the people in the USA to start the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan and start to subordinate with all power also Iran and finally come to the Siberian and Caucasian petrol and gaz ressourced in benefit of only the big trusts. Your government needs your money to spend it on military expenses, the manufacturers of arms make best profits now there in your country by only state orders... .

But well or not well, don't think that things go better in West Europe. Here also more and more is paid for armies all over the world as allied troops of the US troops there.

I am against this war. I am against these big shareholder clans who own the big banks and trusts. And I am not alone here, there are very good people with me.

Goddiejens

Goddiejens
02-17-2008, 04:54 PM
quote:Originally posted by swede

"but you can stand on any street corner and tell anyone who will listen that you think George W. is great, or that you think he's a flaming turd and not dissappear the next day."

In the system Jens (sofar very vaguely) has suggested, this would not be an option.



Not right, Swede,

and you should really know it better based on your experience in Poland.

When I lived in East Berlin I critizised a very lot for example the wall politics there. I complained a lot about stupid functioneers and leaders. Every worker in a state factory there could open his mouth very good to say to his director or master "You are the biggest asshole going around here" ... nothing could happen with him.

Well, painting a nazi cross ("hakenkreuz") on the wall could bring a person fast in jail, but I agreed with jail for such persons always.

Last not least, I have a dossier as victim at the state security of East Germany ... only that you do not confuse me with "religious" communists sect members.. .

Goddiejens

Goddiejens
02-17-2008, 05:00 PM
Well, guys,

I want to stop here to discuss more in this political way with you. We have different opinions, otherwise it would be boring. I respect your position and hopefully you do not damn me in person that I have my one.

I only wanted to make clear why I do not see a solution on sex slaves trade within our existing capitalist / imperialist global society. Making profit, doing business as dirty as possible and as perverse as possible only to have profitable business running ... is a characteristic of our system. This is my message here, nothing else.

I see that we all want to change the situation and improve the situation of the affected people so that nobody is in absolute need to prostitute himself or herself. That's a good beginning. And it is good that we all want that.

Sincerely,

Goddiejens

PeopleSmoks
02-17-2008, 05:11 PM
quote:Marx or Lenin never formulated "Believe in me! I am your godness now! We can make it!"
A very true statement. Communism/socialism, as an ideal isn't the problem. My reference wasn't toward believing in one man, but believing in the ideology of cummunism/socialism. There is a big difference. And for this ideal to be effective within a world wide scale, all must believe in it and no single individual can take a role as the leader.

quote:The Red Army changed big parts of the world by fighting and defending the USSR
You absolutely can't be serious!!! Forced compliance, aggression and world dominance are about as far from the teachings of the two men previously talked about as you can get! The Red Army defended what??? The USSR's right to conquer smaller weaker nations and swallow them whole, forcing the people to become another unwilling cog in the failure of Stalinism? The only true threat of invasion to the USSR was from their communist bretheren in China! Which by the way was why good old Dick Nixon openned relations with the Chinese in the early 70s, to increase the threat and thus slow down Soviet forced expansion policies toward the west. Sorry Jens, but you really missed the mark.

quote:What I meant with a chosen change is the possibility of using free will and a measure of selfdiscipline. Precisely as with learning anything else.
But such a change would take time... a very long time, which to me sounds like evolution. As those with the expanded minds, capable of excepting such concepts as we have been discussing, begin to flurish, those with narrow minds begin to die off, and thus evolution occurs.

By the way, my dad met the King and Queen of Sweden about 15 or 20 years ago when they were in the US. Nice people he said.

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Anthony Ferrara
02-17-2008, 07:12 PM
Well, Hello again All!

Hummm, seem's I have struck a nerve regarding the state of Life and Fact's in America! Humm, Well I think I need to clarify the middle class issue although I think Peoplesmoks understand's allready!
Firstly, the middle class in America is alittle unique! I see three seperate section's. Lower, Middle and Upper middle class! The brundt and majority of the Tax payer's in America are middle class and I think amount to a minimum of 60+% of people in America!! There for we are in fact the Back Bone of America because if you take us away this country is in Very Bad Trouble! Let's be real here, you think the Wealthy or Mega Wealthy here in America will pay all of the bill's if the middle class disappear's? Ohhh, Please let's not be Ignorant!!;)
I also have to say that American's therefor America are Very Generous and Compassionate People and we have all Helped in numerous way's much less fortuante People all over this World, Far More than any other country so Please let's stay Honest and Understand the Realities of this World!! Believe me that American's DO NOT AGREE regarding the action's of our government and many are tired of the War's in Iraq and Afganistan however we are all Sick and Tired of being represented as Tyrant's and Oil Greedy Human's, this is Simply not True and is a Propaganda Machine created by America basher's!! Come on, can you say Dictator? Humm, let's see, can you say Chavez? Saddam? Noriega? The Shaw? The Marco's? Humm, I suppose it is also America's fault that Putin is the President in Russia "Ex Socialist"? Ex my tail section!![^]
Do not misunderstand me now, I actualy Like Putin alittle but I feel he is too stubborn and unyielding sometimes!! Hey, let's also look at the fact's, Who was Truely an activist regarding the fall of the Berlin Wall? Simple answer here, President Reagan and Gorbachev!! I know I misspelled his name, I ask for Mr. Gorbachev for forgiveness and I have to admit I like him alot and he was Pro Russian People, Not the defunked Communist's!!!! I believe that Gorbachev was a Man of his People and not for a Failed and Totalitarian System!! Fact's are prior History, Communism does not work and although Democracy is not and has Never been perfect it is far better for the Majority of All People in this World!!
I am certainly not perfect and I Never Will be but this Never stop's me from alway's striveing to be Better as a Man and as a Human Being also!! Well so much for Communism!!
I have to also state a fact, many other countries want us there in the middle east! Humm, let's see, there is Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Yemen, UAE, Jordan, Kurtistan, to a extent Turkey, Egypt, Qatar, Pakistan, Afganistan and a few eastern European countries as Well, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Poland, Yugoslavia and more! Humm, Interesting I think!!
I see America all over the World, even in the Phillipines fighting insurgent's there that have killed and Terrorized and Butchered Thousand's of Phillpino's over the past 40 year's!! Why you may ask? Simple, Religion!! However the religous causes are tainted by Fanatic's who clearly do not think as we Freedom Lover's think and also I believe they Hate us for our steadfast belief's that all Men are created equal!! Well, I think enough for now, again the Pandora's Box is now been opened!!!!

Sincerely,

Tone

PeopleSmoks
02-17-2008, 07:52 PM
Hey Tone! I'll wave the Red, White and Blue from time to time myself, but some of the reality as you see it may be a bit blurred by the stars and stripes.
Yes, there are some cases where the bleeding heart liberals have dragged us into third world economic "money pits", and now we would have a guilt trip for getting out, but most of the countries you mentioned only "want" us around for their own economic reasons, and we certainly have our own agendas.

quote:Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Yemen, UAE
We protect their oil and their wealth from guys like Saddam Hussein. They don't really like us. Jordan and Egypt want our favor in dealing with Isreal! Pakistan needs a referee with India! Afganistan... rebuild the infrastucture $$$$$! (Or actually build them one, since they never really had one to begin with.) We get oil!!!!

You also refer to the Shaw, and Marcos. We can't forget that the US created these monsters... Saddam Hussein ring a bell??? The US helped him build his millitary because we were pissed at Iran after they toppled our puppet the Shaw. Oh, when we screw up, we do it as with anything we Americans do, way far over the top!!!

Putin isn't that bad. He's what Russia needed at the time and maybe still does. I see him as almost Reagan-like in some ways. He seems to have somewhat restored a national pride to the Russian people. Yes, he slowed down reforms, but a glass of water can quench a man's thirst, shove him face down in a swimming pool and he drowns. "But I thought he looked thirsty?" See what I mean?

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Anthony Ferrara
02-17-2008, 08:20 PM
Peoplesmoks

Yes I agree with you for the most part! However My Vision Really is not blured to much, I will explain! I have shared my belief's primarily based in fact however I errored due to over viewing my thought's! I Agree that our CIA installed numerous Men in power for our "Alledged" Interest's however thier short sightedness caught up to them! I think the removal of Saddam is and was our CIA's way of possibly saveing alittle face even though is was clearly short sightedness!! However there is far more going on in the Middle East than alot of us realise, Much, Much more!! I can clearly see by action's and Rhetoric that Iran want's to fill the power vaccum there, this to me is clear! The strange fact is that many Irainian's do not want a conflict with Us or any of our Allies, they are tome actualy a Honorable People and I Respect them just as I Respect most Iraqi's and many other Middle Eastern People!! True that other Middle Eastern countries Agree with our Intension's for thier self gain, as we do also! I am Very Sad to say that our country has become far to dependant on foreign oil and this need's to stop, not later but sooner!! Well, I Hope I am understood at least alittle better!!

Sincerely,

Tone

PeopleSmoks
02-17-2008, 08:53 PM
Hey Tone, I'll let you in on something that was recently "leaked" regarding Hussein and WMDs. The CIA may not have completely screwed up as it is now believed. One of Hussein's attorneys recently reported that the WMD chess match with the US was a calculated risk taken by the now deceased dictator. The attorney said that Hussein honestly did not believe the US would attack as we did just because we thought he might have WMDs as long as his armies remained within Iraqi borders. Husseins reasoning for allowing the world to think he had such weapons was his fear that Iran would almost certainly attack if they knew he had no such weapons.

quote:The strange fact is that many Irainian's do not want a conflict with Us or any of our Allies
Who in their right mind would??? Our technology regarding "conventional" weapons is down right scary! My favorite examples are the F-15 and our nuke sub fleet. The F-15's basic design is almost 40 years old. Though rarely used and expensive as heck, to the best of my knowledge, this bird has never lost a fight. The Raptor has some big shoes to fill. The US hasn't lost a sub in some 40 years as well, and with cruise missiles onboard, they're simply deadly. Why anyone would want to take us on in a conventional fight is beyond me.

Wars boil down to some assh@le's personal political ambitions and greed... except in the case of Muslim extremists. (It should be noted that 99% of all Muslims are good peaceful folk.) But anyone who takes a book like the Curan, which preaches peace, and uses it for a rally cry of hatred is just plain 'beep'ed in the head any way and should be stoned to death.[:0]

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Anthony Ferrara
02-17-2008, 10:18 PM
Ahh, Thank You Peoplesmok for your enlightening information!

Hummmm, Ditto re the F-15, it is True a Nasty deterent!! I also agree that the Curan at times is Grossly and Tyranicly studied and I am so Very Sad to see Good People be subverted by Revolting Lie's and Twisted Perversion's of it!! I have a Theroy about God! Some may not believe in God but I have to say that if only the Devil exsist's God Help all of US! To me God can have many names, Jehova, Alla, Budda and so on but to me God is God!! I have no problem believeing in God because a few times in my Life I have experoenced some Pretty Miracules thing's, thing's I simply cannot explain, no matter how hard I have tried!! A few year's ago I became suddenly very ill, I could not catch my breath and my chest and arm's sometimes burned and tingled and I also had on and off cold sweats! Well, after 3 day's in the Hospital after I think every test known to mankind I needed open Heart Surgery! Wow, what a shock and alittle Terrifying! My Heart Specialist told me I was his Miricle patient because I should never have woken up that morning, I had severe blockages, 4 on my Heart and my main vien on the left of my neck! Well, the night befor my Surgery I Prayed, Humm, my Prayer though was of a different nature because I asked God to allow me to Live so I could feel the Warmth in my Heart of True Love!! Well, I think God was listening and had pitty on me! You see I have been searching for My Truest Love for more than 8 year's and sometimes it seemed Impossible I would finaly find Her, Humm, I Never thought She would actualy be Russian although I have alway's looked at the Russian People with Genuine Interest, Fascination and Sincere Respect!!;)
I have alway's said that American's do not have a problem with the Russian People, it is our government's who seemingly Refuse to Play Nice in the Sandbox!!!! Humm, I think clear enough![^]

regarding Saddam's arsenal of Mass Destructive Weapon's, I think he had them, we simply have not found them yet! I mean common everyone, Saddam was a Legend in his own mind and I also think he may have had a Tainted Triple Dose of God Syndrome!! I think he probably hid or destroyed the proof of his WMD's befor we had enough of his Wild Sabre Rattleing and Viel Threat's but also he was Killing Innocent People every day because they did not succumb to his Terrorizing and Tortureness Nature! I see it this way, we may have Sincerely Assisted him into Power but let's face the Fact's of Responsibility, we did not make nor force him to do all of the Goddless thing's he did dureing his Rule!! Saddam is Guilty of his own Maglomanic Deed's as are All Dictator's and War Monger's!!!! They make thier own daily decision's for thier own benefit and not thier People, Well Simply Said I think!! I think the old saying apply's, do not Shoot the Messenger!![V]
Hummmm, enough for now I think.:)

Sincerely,

Tone

PeopleSmoks
02-18-2008, 02:33 AM
quote:regarding Saddam's arsenal of Mass Destructive Weapon's, I think he had them, we simply have not found them yet!
His statement to his attorny is what it is, and very believeable in light of the context and circumstances. The fact that nothing has been found after a six year occupation of the country seems to support there non-existence.

I also once believed that the WMDs were just well hidden, but what Hussein said about them being a bluff to prevent an Iranian invasion makes a lot of sense, since nothing has been found.

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Goddiejens
02-18-2008, 05:48 AM
Well, guys,

there has been researched a lot since 1989 to find out why countries like the GDR disappeared so simply. Communist historicians found out that the process of erosion started after Stalin's death just with Khrustshov and his "secret speech" which in reality was nothing else than an internal coup in the leadership of the CP of the USSR. Revisonists took the power over there!

This had an impact on Poland and Hungary, especially. And much more it splitted the international community of socialist countries so much that the USSR and China became serious enemies. The scientific works of Kurt Gossweiler in Germany are very interesting to study these things.

Another point, please check the history in total and not only in small parts. Check what happened with Soviet Russia until the peace agreement of Brest-Litovsk. After World War 2 Stalin took back to the USSR what Poland etc. robbed before, nothing else. For ex allied of the fascist Germans and their today again existing organizations in the Baltic countries and Poland and Ukraine this was an aggression by the Red Army ... well, Germany pays high age pensions to former SS people in these countries ... for me they are criminals of war and nothing else.

Stalin was communist, so stalinism is nothing else than communism. Check the reaction in the USSR when Stalin died. This does not mean that he build up a paradise. But he managed to develop the underdeveloped Soviet Russia up to a World Power in political, economic, social and military aspects. There was a lot of idealism and trust in Stalin, but there was also a lot of struggle against him by bourgeois internal and external enemies. The Germans only could thank Stalin because he said "The Hitlers come and go but the German people stay".

Gorbachov was a traitor. He destroyed the agriculture in the 70ies and 80ies and then he destroyed the USSR. Read his speech in Ankara at the American University in 1999, Gorbachov's target had always been to terminate with the 'communist' system and replace it by a bourgeoisy system. Nice to see the wall fall down ... but not nice to see millions of street children and prostitutes in the Eastern world as heritage of Gorbachov's rule. The Russians hate him and they know exactly why.

Goddiejens

PeopleSmoks
02-18-2008, 09:57 AM
quote:Stalin was communist, so stalinism is nothing else than communism.
Not in any way shape or form as prescribed by Lenin. Aggression and forced expansion wasn't what was behind the original thought of a communist/socialist lifestyle. There is nothing wrong with being a world power, but it how one uses that power that defines whether he is a great and noble leader or just a bully.

Lenin certainly invisioned a socialist world, but not to have been acheived by such means. Stalin was in no question a strong leader of Russia and created the Soviet Union. He gave the people a sense of nation pride to be sure, but he was still a aggressive bully.

Train returns

seajay
02-18-2008, 02:28 PM
quote:The marxist-leninist parties have nothing to do with "beliefsystem" or religious sects. They are very dedicated to study the social reality and find a way to change the world so that not profit making but welfare of all people is the central value of the society. (Goddijens)
From my own observations of history, the Marxist-Leninist parties are very dedicated to the complete domination of entire populations, by a handful of sociopaths who rise to the top of the party hierarchy. The sociopaths live in extraordinary luxury, surrounded by sycophants and concubines. And the masses under their iron-fist live in near-poverty.


Having offered MHO, I cannot offer any insight as to how to stop the slave trade. I guess it needs the same as other violent crimes:- strong sanctions (perhaps the death penalty), community repulsion and awareness, as well as the awareness and vigilance of potential victims.

Anthony Ferrara
02-18-2008, 03:16 PM
Seajay, Hi!

Humm, Well said, Well said! I have to Agree re Communism in it's various form's! More to follow I think!!

Sincerely,

Tone

PeopleSmoks
02-18-2008, 07:22 PM
Hey guys! I think I really need to clear up some misconceptions you have regarding Marx, Lenin, communism, Stalin and Stalinism.

quote:From my own observations of history, the Marxist-Leninist parties are very dedicated to the complete domination of entire populations, by a handful of sociopaths who rise to the top of the party hierarchy. The live in extraordinary luxury, surrounded by sycophants and concubines. And the masses under their iron-fist live in near-poverty.
Anyone can call themselves anything they want. That in itself doesn't make them who or what they say they are. Neither Marx nor Lenin presribed the type of world conquest using military might that Stalin used. Communism is basically everyone works, and shares everything equally. So you really shouldn't down the ideology just because a few "sociopaths" told you and the world that they represented an ideology that was in fact diametrically opposed to what was being done.

Again, I use the Muslim example. Muhammed preached peace etc, similar to Christ. So does Osama Bin Lauden and his perception of Islam now represent the true religion? Is Islam evil just because of one man and his followers?

No. Just as Stalin does not represent what communism/socialism is all about.

quote:Having offered MHO, I cannot offer any insight as to how to stop the slave trade. I guess it needs the same as other violent crimes:- strong sanctions (perhaps the death penalty), community repulsion and awareness, as well as the awareness and vigilance of potential victims.
Like anything that involves $$$$$$, it's simple supply and demand. Sometimes you need to look at those buying the girls just as hard as those selling them. Like the slave trade in the US, it was gone after it was illegalized. The big problem is that many countries where there is a demand, have no laws, or very lenient laws at best against the buyers.

The other problem is that such crimes are often commited against the politically unrepresented, and so no one with the power to do anything about it really cares. Sad but true.[V]

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Goddiejens
02-18-2008, 09:04 PM
quote:Originally posted by PeopleSmoks


quote:Stalin was communist, so stalinism is nothing else than communism.
Not in any way shape or form as prescribed by Lenin. Aggression and forced expansion wasn't what was behind the original thought of a communist/socialist lifestyle. There is nothing wrong with being a world power, but it how one uses that power that defines whether he is a great and noble leader or just a bully.

Lenin certainly invisioned a socialist world, but not to have been acheived by such means. Stalin was in no question a strong leader of Russia and created the Soviet Union. He gave the people a sense of nation pride to be sure, but he was still a aggressive bully.

Train returns


Sorry, PeopleSmoks,

this is not true! Stalin did the very best to continue in the political way of Lenin. The collectivization based on Lenin's principles but was blocked violently by counter-revolutionary elements so that Stalin hesitated first ... and this made possible that a certain number of communist activists were killed ... and after these murders Stalin took also very violent measures against the "kulaks" and forced the rural people with pressure to organise the agriculture in collective farms (cooperatives/kolkhozes) and state companies (sowchozes) ... "kulaks" (big farmers) were forced to build up industrial bases in Siberia and "re-educated" in work camps. Most of the "kulaks" were set free after some years and started a new and not bad life in well-paid jobs as miners or petrol workers there in Siberia, there was also a smaller number which did not survive the hard conditions in those camps.

But the "gulag" picture painted with pleasure and purpose by Western agencies does not at all fit to the reality. When Stalin died the people in the USSR were deeply in trouble and expressed that. Have you ever seen the reports from the USSR recorded in those days?

Lenin did not stop the red guards plundering castles and palaces. Stalin ordered East German communists to stop the liquidation of castles and respect the historical heritage of the German people. Stalin allowed 3 days of plunder and violation and victory celebrations of the Soviet Army in their occupied part of Germany. I know the example of one small town where the Russian soldiers violated German women living in one area there every night during several weeks in 1945 so that more than 30 women did suicides in only one night ... the military secret service investigated this case within the military camp in this town ... some days later all people were ordered to be on the market place of that town and the commander ordered there to execute some Russian soldiers in front of the army troops and the population because of crimes against the German women ... so what else army has done such kind of sentence against the own criminals of war?

I know that in the West all officials like to paint the picture of the bloody dictator Stalin. They never tell us how much Stalin was honoured by the own people, how the Soviet soldiers shouted his name whenever they attacked the fascists aggressors, how much attempts had happened to kill Stalin, how much traitors were around him... . They try to put Stalin and Hitler on the same level!

The reason is clear: How to forgive him that he almost broke down the leadership of the imperialism in our world...!!!

Goddiejens

PeopleSmoks
02-18-2008, 09:53 PM
Comparing Lenin and the Bolshevik Revolution to Stalin and his expansionist policy may have sounded good when those voices told it to you, but please read, and learn the difference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

Train returns

Goddiejens
02-19-2008, 05:46 AM
Hi PeopleSmoks,

I prefer primary sources:

- Karl Marx, Manifest of the Communist Party
- V. I. Lenin, State and Revolution
- Michael Sayers, Albert E. Kahn
Die gro?e Verschw?rung ("The big conspiration")
Darstellung des antikommunistischen Kampfes 1919-1945
("Overview of the anticommunist struggle 1919-1945")
based on Stalin's works

Best regards,
Goddiejens

swede
02-19-2008, 11:49 AM
Cit. Jens 17/2:

"I want to stop here to discuss more in this political way with you. We have different opinions, otherwise it would be boring. I respect your position and hopefully you do not damn me in person that I have my one."

The 18.th you're back in full force again, thereby demonstrating your personal inconsequences and as usual putting out nothing but propaganda clich?es.

I certainly trust my own, firsthand experiences from contact with people and culture in FSU better than one-eyed fanatism.There must be a strong reason, why communism (in its stalinistic form) is so intensively hated amongst all the indigenous groups living in the area.

And yes, I've seen these terrible, anti-revolutionary capitalists amongst farmers. My first polish wife owned a 3 acre farm (which is as farms go, very small), which she and her family made into a modelfarm with a lot of hard work. And I saw the neighbouring farm co-operative being run in a disgraceful way. But ofcourse my wife was a cigarsmoking capitalist and exploited her negroslaves, while the poor incompetent partyfunctional leading the co-operative was a victim of some western complot.

Two of my longer-lasting relationships with women from the east have been with highly educated and intelligent women, who both were convinced communists, though not stalinists. I never had any problems communicating with them, could respect their points-of-view and also partly agree to some of it. They were both very, very negative to the SU invasion of their country. They saw it as invasion, as the stalinist regime actually wasn't anything but russian empirialism.

"but not nice to see millions of street children and prostitutes in ...................."

And you say, prostitution didn't exist in the SU period also? I can tell you, that a lot of people going there in that time had different experiences. You could have a girl for some food, cigarettes or "luxury" articles (like f.ex. some good clothes). But I'm convinced, that you as usual have some very good explanations for this.

"The collectivization based on Lenin's principles but was blocked violently by counter-revolutionary elements so that Stalin hesitated first ... "

Sure, the standard justification: "HE started it".

What I find significant in all your writings is the omission of ordinary peoples right to decide their own life. Come out in the open and admit your fascination for total power. You just LIKE power, in its raw form. Isn't that it?

And you have yet to show examples of the validity of your fundamentalist ideas. This is the third or fourth time I ask, but I guess, it's a very inconvenient question. Or maybe your philosophy doesn't need demonstable, pragmatic facts to be proven. That's often the case with fanatics.

Anthony Ferrara
02-19-2008, 05:22 PM
Hi All! :)
I think I have to Agree with Swede and this subject! Ithink that sometimes heated discussion's take play due to Personal Ideal's rather then fact's and of course fact's change as time passes and as new Truth's or Information become available!! Availability, Humm, My Lady in Russia recently stated She remembered there were a few item's recently that were hard to find on store shelves like befor the SU fell, Well She felt it reminded her of how recently thing's used to be such as standing in line for up to or exceeding 8 hour's in freezeing temperatures for bread or milk and especialy meat!! Humm, I Wonder how hard thing's were re the dinner table's for the Party Elitest's?? Not Very Bad I think! The Truth due to actual Documentaries from foreign new's services and Very Brave People in thier onw countries and reporter's that have been known for many year's now!! No Secret's or Surprises on this subject!!
Well, I think no polictical system is perfect and I know due to Historical Fact's that NO Religious system is perfect for Sure!!!!
Humm, Well for now I will wait for the rebuttal's! Hehe, this should be Interesting!! I Wish all the Best and stay Safe and Well, No Matter what your religion or country!!!!
Well, I have deposited here alittle to genuflect on!

Sincerely,

Tone

Goddiejens
02-19-2008, 05:42 PM
Hi Swede,

is prostitution just that you can have a girl? Or that there are girls you can have easy? Or that a girl "serves" you for a special gift or whatever? Then most of the relation in this word started as prostitution ... absurd to share such a definition of "prostitution".

For me, prostitution means to use other people so that these other people serve as sexual objects paid by certain clients and the pimp makes money with it. This is prostitution. (The pimp can also be a 17 y/o girl in Manila selling 7-15 y/o girls to pedofiles from wherever... .)

In the USSR there were no structures of such prostitution accepted. You could not find pimps there, girls did not prostitute themselves because of poverty like they do it in Manila... .

But well ... in all the world you find "easy going girls" ... you find them also in USA, Canada, West Europe and Australia ... give teenagers some kind of drugs and you find an easy going girl fast ... .

Last not least: I went to stop this discussion. But it is not stopped so that of course I react.

Goddiejens

swede
02-19-2008, 06:36 PM
Hi Tone,

when I first time visited Poland about 1990, the bakeries were usually out of bread 11 o'clock morning. And that in the middle of a farmingarea.

A lot of other daily needs in this area (fundamentally being a down-to-earth part of Poland, peopled by farmers, craftsmen and industrial workers) like nails, farming-spareparts etc. you could wait weeks, if not months to get. The locally produced Fiat model had a waiting list of 14 YEARS.

"Luxury"articles like imported perfume, food or booze, were on the other hand easy to get. If you could pay with foreign currency. Considering that the area I visited had next to no tourists, the only people having foreign currency were ofcourse the local political bosses. Some people were indeed more equal than others.

Jens,

as to the definiton of prostitution is seems very uncomplicated. It's
a situation where one part pays the other in cash, privileges or goods for sexual services. Without any other implications. This can be done on a private enterpriser level, or as part of an organisation's activities. Both privately and organised it's prostitution.

In any case, if this is a situation between consenting, responsible adults, it's not your (or my) business. Stop playing god.

That children (or anybody else for that sake) were especially protected against such in FSU is not true. I have a first-hand description from UA, where a woman started her sexual career as a nine year old, without anybody in her family or surroundings raising an outcry about this, though they knew. And this was a standard FSU family, not with some alcoholic parent involved.

Anthony Ferrara
02-20-2008, 08:36 AM
Hi Swede and Jens :)

I think I have to agree with Swede on this subject! Re prostituion, I think we all see this in every country in this World, simply not a few countries!! Sometimes when Women and children have no other way to support themselves they resort to prostituion, they have no other choices!! I believe many prostitutes do not Wish to do this for a liveing but many are forced to due to economic condition's and being forced to by other's or another! It is said that prostituion is the oldest trade in the World, Well this may very Well be True but all of us decent people "Especialy Men" should not continue to patronize this profession because without the need for it the trade would dissolve!!!! It Never ceases to Amaze me the reason's Men continue to support this trade, Hummmm, most reason's are so Selfish and Ridiculous I feel it is a waste of Time to even listen to them, Truely!!!! Well enough said for now from me!;)

Sincerely,

Tone