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  1. #881
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    Dec 2007
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    When it comes to it, we are all herd-animals, and as such fighting for a position in the hierachy. Originally with raw power or sexual attraction, but as societies get more complex, more sophisticated aims and means arise. Money, fame, glamour, manipulation, mindgames....you name it.(though sex is usually still a favorite. When W.C.Fields was asked: "What do you think of sex?", he answered: "Well, I think it has come to stay").

    Most societies develop a code for social behaviour, sometimes even humanistic ideals, but this is only a more or less thin veneer, necessary for group survival.
    It's the price for a functional group. Think about what would happen, if everyone had her/his own trafficrules, or if we didn't cooperate to make schools, hospitals etc.
    So asocial (sociopath) behaviour is destructive for the average person, eventually even to the individual practising it, even if s/he maybe gets short-time benefits.

    Ofcourse there will always be individuals stupid or egotripping enough to disregard this, and if a society contains more than a certain percentage of such individuals, it spells trouble. Possibly collapse.

    With the coming of advanced communication technology, the possiblities for the sociopaths are greatly enhanced as Ham pointed out. But still, the possibilities are not the same as the will to (mis)use them.

    Surely you will meet (mis)users in the west also (sadly enough a growing number), but this is peanuts to the numbers, you will meet in certain SFU subcultures. My own approximation is, that if more than 20% of the web-dating FSUW are kosher, I would be happily surprised.

    But as the physicist Heisenberg demonstrated, the laws of existence is only a statistical probability. With enough perseverance and knowledge you may find one of the kosher 20% FSUW. Being adventurous is not a character-deficiency. But DO bring along your Batman anti-scammer spray.


  2. #882
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    Sep 2007
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    Hey guys! Once again, as one who is yet to make the trip, I rely on what I read in your posts as well as various web articles. As it seems the topic has swung a bit toward sociopathic issues, I understand what you're saying about the attitude of these people in general. I have read an article that puts forth that the attitude of the scam artists is that they are really doing nothing wrong.

    They have a "talent" and are using it for the purpose of making what they consider to be a good living. They see it as the greed of the westerners coming to their country to exploit them, so why not get what they can? If a guy is stupid enough to send them money then it's the westerner's stupidity that is the problem.
    quote:Tell your story "fiancee" story here so I can analyse the situation and explain you what they were thinking.
    brunods, there's not much to analyze. I met a girl in August. She is a bit younger than what my target age group was, but... We corresponded for a month and a half, and even discussed our meeting. Then I got a bit suspicious of her and the agency she was using (more suspicious of the agency than her) and I stopped writing for awhile. She continued to write and convinced me to continue our correspondence. She tells me I'm the only one she writes to. I have "free" memberships on a number of FSU/MOB sites and have not found her profile. I figure that she's either telling me the truth or has enough guys on the hook and doesn't need to post a profile anywhere else?

    She's 25yo. As I said, a bit younger than I was looking for, but we seem to have a connection? Back to the Ukrainian girls and school. As I said, I've heard (I think it may have been a posting by ham?) don't bother with these girls unless you're willing to wait until they are done. She graduates this spring, so I figured what the heck?

    I had proposed a meeting in early December, but she said she needed this time to prepare for exams and then to take her exams. I agreed based on what I had heard about how serious Ukrainian girls are about their studies. We are scheduled to meet March 1st, and I will stay in Ukraine for a week. Our plan is to make plans for her to come to the US as soon as possible.

    Our e-mail conversations run anywhere from how cold it is to politics. We agree on many things and dissagree on others. We discuss family, friends, that I am not rich, how hard it might be for her to find a job here, I will take care of her, having kids and yes sex. But this was a subject that came up after quite a while as part of the topic of relationships.

    She can be very confusing, which I attribute to the fact that she is first and foremost a woman, and secondly that she is from another country with a different culture. Let's face it, women like to tease. We talk about scammers and sex tourists openly, although neither of us can be sure of the others intentions.

    I have told her that all I hope for is to hold her hand as we sip coffee in a coffee house at our first meeting. I have openly told her that of course a man would desire her, but that is not why I am flying to Ukraine. She says that if things happen naturally then that is what happens.

    I sent her a present of champagne and roses for Christmas. Yup, I requeted that the delivery company take her pic! In a recent letter, she hinted that Ukraine orthodox Christmas is on January 7th if I wished to celebrate that with her. "But if you ask me about an ideal present for Christmas I would say that something feminine will make me happy. it can be anything? that can make me look female and desirable for you." Well, either she's teasing me, is as horny as I am, needs something to wear for her real hubby, or Igor needs something for his wifey, or there is something behind the letters? But I do have the pic of her receiving my last gift?????

    Yes, I remain a bit sceptical, but not quite cynical. I'll find out March 1st!

    Ok brunods, analyze this!!!!!!!![8D]

    Train returns

  3. #883
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    Aug 2007
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    Hey People, I have been watching this thread for months with interest. I wish you luck in March. I'm sure that you will find someone but with what I have read - it won't be the one you expect. I really think that on-line dating will fail because in the end it takes the chance encounter out of the mix. You correspond with someone over email, develop an idea in your mind of who she is and what she is like and inevitably she will not meet some expectation. Contrast to a chance meeting - your standing in line at a store and for no reason you can figure you just know the women in front of you is single, available, and compatible - the sparks fly. That just can't happen on-line. I think dating in any country and in any circumstance is a crap shoot. You never really know the intentions of the women you are chasing sometimes even after you marry them. One could get so paranoid and wrapped up in the "what ifs" that they just sit here in front of a computer screen frozen from moving forward. I will be interested to find out how your trip goes.
    I have been spending time with a Taiwanese chick - and all I can say is Asian chicks rock.

  4. #884
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    Sep 2005
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    quote:You correspond with someone over email, develop an idea in your mind of who she is and what she is like and inevitably she will not meet some expectation.
    males are easily fooled.
    Sure, if she truly weighs 110kg while you have been corresponding with someone claiming to weigh only 55...if she has three children, while you think she has none...if she's 38 while you think she's 22...if her face was the model for Porky pig's rather than Joan of Arc's...
    BUT!
    If a woman is both young and pretty, whatever might be in her head or in her heart comes instantly second.
    Face it, most men would not buy as a fraction of hogwash (all clear in retrospect peeking out of the divorce court ) from a ugly woman than they actually do from pretty young things.
    Why are FSU scammers all the rage?
    Why Philipino fraudulent "penpal centres" are barely known, in spite of their fraudulent nature and old records (reported from the 1970s)?
    Answer: because even Kamala from Uganda wants some slim, ivory-skinned beauty (preferably blond ), while Philipinas are -in comparison- butt-ugly (that is why they enter the market at 15yo ), even side to side with Thai and Chinese women (muuuuch prettier).
    A FSUW in her 30s or 40s stands good chances to still be extremely alluring, and to retain a significant share of the raging beauty of her 18yo, while a 40yo philipina might very likely look like a worn-out mama from the cotton field.
    That is why Nigerian prostitutes are mostly underage (said a documentary), while eastern europeans need not to be.



  5. #885
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    Dec 2007
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    381

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    Sorry if my language is a bit stilted occasionally, but after all english is not my first language. So I sometimes speak "academise" to be clear, and end up confusing a lot of people.

    I didn't intend to start sociopathy as a central topic. What I meant is simply, that no matter your genetic, national, cultural, economical or social background, there exist some universal rules: You don't lie, steal or cheat. That applies to everybody in a situation, where you at least have the possibility of surviving. (Food, shelter etc).

    And the girls on web-dating aren't exactly bag-ladies.

    When you have sorted out the agencies, the non-existing women and the existing scammers, you still have the rest. Real women, who may be straight or not.

    Where Ham seems to be concentrating on the overall-picture (and I agree to his conclusions), I center on the personal, pragmatic experiences, I have had.

    I have before said, that maybe 20% of the FSUW on datingsites are kosher. My reason is: I have yet to meet an FSUW, who doesn't treat "truth" in an extremely flexible way. My dear wife, who is really a sweet little soul, often tells me: "But that's what I said yesterday. Today is different". Ofcourse it gives me the willies.

    The FSU consists of a lot of natural-born liars, socially and morally like 4-5 old kids. Can you really cope with that?

    I have problems about it.

  6. #886

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    haha PeopleSmoks, very good description!

    As for me I have made my evaluation of the whole thing and I figured out why I'm so disconnected from the girl I'm corresponding to. Basically she avoids subjects that she does not want to answer. For example I asked her about her ex-boyfriend and a few other things. Her next letter had completely disregarded all my questions and only talked about the weather and so on.
    My conclusion after seeing a pattern over time is that there is no scam, just a woman! The decision then is that if she avoids subjects then she is no better than the other women who I don't want so I am not going to Ukraine nor renewing my subscription in end of January.

    I will of course talk to her about what I am thinking and that I don't like women who avoid subjects or answering my questions.
    You're probably thinking there isn't any like that... I can say there are quite a few who are very open. My ex. was, my best friend is also maybe 90% open. Now if the girl is only like 50% open then I don't want her.
    Anyway I trust my instinct mainly, if this was something real I wouldn't be so indifferent to it. I'm corresponding still mainly because I find this interesting, I can save all the chats and later on write a book or just read them with my future girl to have fun!

    Conclusion of my story:

    The girl is real, just not what I'm looking for. It is harder to figure that out through translated letters and easier to miss if the girl doesn't reply our questions straight away.

    BTW she repeats in every e-mail how much she misses me, I find that annoying because I don't think much about her or miss her.
    Oh well will tell her what I think lets see what she says.

    What I did now for her to answer was to reply to her "futile" letter asking if she received my last letter and to answer my questions please. So the questions the girl does not like to answer or talk about:

    1. Ex-relations
    2. Us meeting in real life
    3. My comments about other girls I know

    For example at sometime I commented there was a girl here coming on to me and I wasn't sure on what I'd do. She did never said anything about it. So either the translators miss that on purpose or the girl avoided the subject. I think its the girl avoiding subject.
    After organizing the letters into a document (letter + answer) in order it becomes obvious the avoiding pattern.
    BTW if the girl would make money with her photos, she would ask us to look/comment them more than once, if we hadn't gone accept them. And of course she would know we had not accepted the photos or had deleted, that would call for some subsconcious reaction in the following letters. I don't see any, which is why I think they aren't paid commissions.
    There was something odd, I remember right after paying my previous 2 months unlimited (150 USD) I did this twice with this girl and both times she "vanished" for a few days (3-5 days). The second time she came up with a story about being away. Since it was too few times to be certain I don't think it is very relevant anyway.. but if we cross-reference we can figure out if the pattern repeats with different girls. :P

    BTW good luck PeopleSmoks!!!!!!!

    I'm going to Estonia instead! I guess UA was just some kind of training for me, I never really expected to go to Ukraine, too many disadvantages for my taste. In Estonia I have free hotel to stay (client's hotel), family in Tallinn and business to grow. Much better bet to find my woman there. Someone I actually know in real life!

    Best luck to you guys!

  7. #887
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    Sep 2007
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    623

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    Hey guys! ClueLess, or maybe not so clueless, thanks for your good wishes. As for chance meetings, been there, done that and what a f@cking nightmare! My X the heroin junkie wh@re is fairly well documented on these pages... a chance meeting.

    I shoot for straight up honest with the girls I've written to, especially this one. Let's face it, lie now, pay later! Heck, I even told her I drink and smoke.
    quote:males are easily fooled.
    Let's qualify that ham. Men are easily fooled by those who possess the "magic box" and have really nice wrapping paper complete with large round bumper guards.[] And yes, I think they ARE from another planet! Either that or the devil's spawn!!!
    quote:When you have sorted out the agencies, the non-existing women and the existing scammers, you still have the rest. Real women, who may be straight or not.
    This is what has kept me going. Searching for that elusive few... or should I say, one! There are millions and millions of women in the FSU. There are millions of ads from FSUW. All of these ads CAN'T be fake??? Can they??? I have learned alot from these forums and it's been enough to save me from the sharks so far, but I still have to believe that there are real girls out there and that the one I plan to visit is real, or there's no sense in doing this sh!t, is there?
    quote:As for me I have made my evaluation of the whole thing and I figured out why I'm so disconnected from the girl I'm corresponding to. Basically she avoids subjects that she does not want to answer.
    Honestly, not answering questions is one of the first things to look for from a scam and possible form letters. Although the things you have listed could be sore subjects for a girl, but she still should have commented about it and told you she just doesn't want to talk about it.

    Some girls maybe curious about your ex-relations and others may take the attitude, that was your past, I'm your present and future. Jealousy IS a two way street. I know that I'd be less than happy if my girl was to discuss guys she knows and hangs out with or guys "coming on" to her, but she wasn't sure??? I'd be p!ssed!!!

    If you've talked to her about a real meeting and she avoids that subject, then things are going nowhere. What's the point of all the correspondence? Is she looking for a penpal? For $150/month??? P!ss on that!!!

    With my girl, the subjects of scam artists and sex tourists has been openly discussed. I can only hope that there is no scam waiting for me, but as for me being a "sex tourist" I've told her that I think she is a beautiful and sexy girl. It's natural that a man would think of such a beautiful girl in such a way, but sex isn't the reason for my trip. I told her that, in fact, I would be happy just to hold her hand... I think I already wrote this stuff... Anyway, you need to assure the girl that sex isn't your intentions toward her, and if that is all you really want then... What I think about sex tourists could fill another forum topic.

    As for a girl "vanishing" 3-5 days... think female monthly schedules?
    It's a possibility? Yeah, I'm a sceptic, but not yet a total cynic!

    Train returns

  8. #888
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    Sep 2005
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    quote:This is what has kept me going. Searching for that elusive few... or should I say, one! There are millions and millions of women in the FSU. There are millions of ads from FSUW. All of these ads CAN'T be fake??? Can they??? I have learned alot from these forums and it's been enough to save me from the sharks so far, but I still have to believe that there are real girls out there and that the one I plan to visit is real, or there's no sense in doing this sh!t, is there?
    to each one's own.
    my opinion is that however seductive and apparently making sense, this argument does not hold.
    So with so many millions people, and a given % of "nice" people, [u]therefore it is only a matter of chance.
    Yes and no.
    How are one's [u]real chances of winning a big lottery (even if not the millionaire lottery everyone talks about )?
    We know statistical chances ought to be the same for every single ticket bought, right?
    In the end however we have say 1 million tickets sold (which constitute the jackpot ) but only five winners...how's your chance to be one of them?
    It is my opinion that WWW/LD "reality" and real life are worlds apart.
    You just cannot superpose them.
    Think of the swindle, smoke-blowing and reality-bending that takes place online and how harder -if not impossible- it'd be to go that far in real life.
    Therefore I take a great abyss to exist between "real" people and "online" people...sounds absurd but it's true.
    Online "life" is much like life in a movie studio...everything can happen...men in blue tighs and red cape fly around; a movie showcases 187 women and all can be beauty pageant; eccentric millionaires operate nuclear-powered mini-submarines in Atlantis...but it's fake.


    quote:Honestly, not answering questions is one of the first things to look for from a scam and possible form letters. Although the things you have listed could be sore subjects for a girl, but she still should have commented about it and told you she just doesn't want to talk about it.
    dodging questions is typical of scammers, forget virgin "good girls" of victorian persuasion who are just too shy.

  9. #889

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    hahaha... well I think I didn't explain myself well. She does answer to what I ask. The issue here is that she told me she doesn't answer some of my questions because she doesn't like to talk about that specific subject. As for us meeting we did talk about it but she didn't understand what my question was exactly. I wasn't trying to set a date, just wanted to have an idea of what her thoughts are.

    Anyway, by my answer to her I think you can understand the whole point behind it. It is totally unrelated to scams, has just to do with the personality of the person nothing else. I've met enough women to know they don't do it in purpose, it is usually the way they are nothing else. They don't know better.

    MY ANSWER!!!!!
    --------------

    Nadja, as far as I understand up to now, when you don't want to answer something you just ignore it and talk about something else.

    Don't get me wrong, I think many guys won't mind about it but me, personally, I really can't get along with someone who does that. I am the kind of man who will answer any question about any subject at any time. Mainly if the whole purpose of correspondence is to get to know each other, it doesn't make much sense if I would start avoiding subjects that I don't like/want to talk about. So much for being open...

    As I said, it is enough of fairy tales. It is OK to share everyday things but being restricted to that is not really getting to know a person, which is why we are here I think?

    The question you can ask yourself is .. do you want a man who will not answer what you ask and will only answer what he wants to answer? Would you trust such man? I wouldn't.

    Do you understand my point of view?

    Kisses,
    Bruno

    -------------------------------------------

    What do you think? Was it clear enough?? hehehehe

    I guess I just connected the dots. There are a few more dots but those are circunstancial. My objective was to understand her personality and principles. Just to know if she has what it takes or not. Seems we're just not working on the same frequency when it comes to being serious.

    On my last letter to her I told her we have a communication problem and prompted her about being more open.

    Her reply was pretty interesting:
    ---------------------------------

    "Thank you for your letter! I undersand that it is important, but some topics I don't want to talk about some topics. Just don't like to talk about it!"

    This was it. After this paragraph the "fairy tale" started again like if I had said nothing! So she really doesn't want to talk about it I guess. Bad luck then. Either we talk about it or we don't talk at all. Simple enough! LOL

    Now about the scam part.
    Do you see any reason for the girl not to tell me some stories about her ex-boyfriend if this was a scam?
    If it was a scam she would answer and probably just come up with a story, would not refuse to talk about it and risk losing the precious 150 USD every 2 months. :P

    PeopleSmokes, it isn't 150 USD per month, its for 2 months! hehe
    Its just 75 USD per month, not really that big deal.

    I am now very curious to see how the girl will react now that I put her in reality check! This should be fun.

    I should know better than expect a 23 year old girl to be mature enough for me. I personally prefer older women even! I'm 29 and I like women between 26-33, I doubt any younger will have what it takes!
    Shame on me!

  10. #890
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    Sep 2005
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    quoteo you see any reason for the girl not to tell me some stories about her ex-boyfriend if this was a scam?
    hmm
    most women are at unease with being tested for how "easy" they might be.
    In fact, asking about her boyfriendS you make clear you want to appraise "the car's mileage".
    Other women are simply shy or ashamed and don't want to remember the (many) men in their past, because it sends bad vibes about them.
    I see a problem in that unwillingness to face problems might seem cool or "enigmatic" at first, but may very well signal deep emotional flaws (EG unwillingness to adjust or to face problems ), which will very likely come back to haunt the couple later with dreadful effects.
    I met a couple such women and they are bad news.
    Online or at a "merely dating" stage, she can walk away and refuse to talk, but in real, 24-7-365 life that can brew tragic problems.
    In fact, it is unlikely their "unwillingness to talk" concerns only one topic, or a few; usually it is a lifestyle, a way of dealing with challenges & discomfort.

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