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Thread: psychobabbling

  1. #261
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    Hi PeopleS,

    no, you didn't write anything stupid. It's only my habit of having too many balls in the air, which manifested. Sometimes they come tumbling down on me, and I momentarily loose the ability to think clearly.

    Humanity being what it is, democracy looks like reasonable functional way of diminishing the havoc we are potential of creating otherwise. A balance between obligations and freedom, guidelines for politics, saferegulations for poweruse etc. All regulated in a set of rules accepted by all parts.

    Ofcourse this is only the 'official' version. Behind the public theater the same old warlords, robber-barons, the religious insane and the sociopaths still rule. But the average sheepwalker, who just wants to live her/his life in mild greed and mental laziness, usually doesn't care as long as s/he is left in peace to pursue these noble aims.

    But reptilebrained alpha (fe)males ofcourse can't leave well alone, so on a regular basis they bend the rules and take their sandbox conflicts out in the open. On the device of reducing democracy to almost zero to defend democracy (that's logic for you) the sheepwalker is turned into cannonfodder by the help of inflaming speeches and military music.

    Suddenly the sheepwalker on the other side of the fence is a moneygrabbing jew, a nigger, an 'injun', a tibetan, a commie, a capitalist, a wishy-washy liberal, and you certainly don't want your sister to marry one of THOSE, do you?

    And so the circus starts again with trails of tears, sharing out of smallpox infected blankets, kz-camps, bonfires with live witches, crusades and why not...., world wars.

    We are reaching one of those polarised periods again, where the old christian crusader west is meeting their archenemy, the jihad again. With the usual spice of money and politics added to make it more interesting. And very few have any clue about what is actually happening or why.

    To stay aloof is difficult, everybody is expected to take sides, and if they don't want, they are manipulated into doing it.

    When I was in Ukarine, the country was literally split in the middle between pro-russian and pro-west sympathies, and the people I met worried about a potential civil war (it did get quite rough occasionally some places). I doubt it's much better now. So the WM going to UA (or Russia) for dating must be prepared to 'politically correct' to hope for a positive outcome. As if scamming, agency-fakes, gold-diggers and general conning wasn't enough.

    PeopleS, I'm not getting into neighbourhood politics. Europe is standing infor a critical political period, with a possible
    new sovjet-like state being created here for all Europe. And for various reasons Sweden plays a crucial role in this powergame. And as to the freedom of speach here, I can only cite our former prime minister's words: "Anyone hurting Sweden's international reputation, I will personally crush". A kind of modern McCarthy version.

  2. #262
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    Greetings swede and all who may drop by for a free taste of overly indulgient, sometimes bordering on slovenly, opinionism!

    swede, I think we should leave your manifested, tumbling, airy balls to another forum... or maybe we can start a new thread?[)]

    Democracy is far from nirvana, but it has more or less proven to be the most workable of the existing political philosophies so far. Unlike Stalin's application of communism, within the confines of democracy, we all know and generally have come to accept that there will be those who have, take, legally steal, a little more than others.

    I personally don't go in for the "Free Masons" or the "Illuminatee" conspiracy theories, but I do believe in the power brokers of the world. I see it as something similar to the other conspiracies, but not quite as deeply woven into the "All seeing and all controlling" aspect that has been given to the afore mentioned groups.

    And, I think you're very right about the average person not caring so much as long as he or she is able to attain a certain level of person comfort. I certainly don't think of myself as a "sheepwalker", however, I can freely admit that I'm not so concerned about some things so long as my little piece of the world isn't trampled on.

    But, I do stand back and take a look at the big picture from time to time. We ARE in a potetially dangerous time. The individual must begin to take notice of the manner and reasons for the limits being put on certain freedoms so as not to allow things to get out of control.

    Post 911 America is a different place to be sure. It was a major shock to our system! No foriegn entity has attacked the US mainland with significant force since 1815! During WWII, Nazi subs never really launched any attacks, although many, I for one, believe that the stories of their incursions up the Delaware River have some validity. The Japanese "balloon bomb" attacks, accounted for fewer than a dozen casualties. Most of the bombs never reached the US, and most of the few that did, exploded harmlessly in unpopulated areas.

    But, 911 hurt! It pissed us all off! But, the response was miss guided, although I think somewhat intentionally.

    A brief history lesson for those who don't know...
    Iraq invaded Kuwait. Pres. Bush #1 said leave or else. Saddam Hussien replied with a big "F@CK YOU"! Pres. Bush #1 answered with a very telivised "NO... F@CK YOU B!TCH"! Now, I don't know for sure, but, I heard that Hussien had tried to have Pres. Bush #1 assasinated!

    Enter Pres. Bush#2... 911... Now, if I were the leader of the world's most powerful military, I'd be itching like a Kiev prostitute with the crabs to find a reason to go get the S.O.B. that tried to have my daddy killed! The result, "Gulf War II".

    More of my personal politics... Bill Clinton is a *****! Sorry for not censoring myself on that, but I feel very strongly that HE caused 911. Stories have been flying that the CIA found Bin Laden and was ready to "eliminate" this threat, but the Clinton Whitehouse
    sh!t-canned the idea!

    Also, a little known Clinton administration fact... The US HAD a fighter wing stationed in Pomona, NJ, But during the Clinton years, with a Democratic party control congress, that base was closed. They couldn't give us the universal health care they promised to get elected, but they sure were good at closing up our military bases!

    Well, as it turns out, the now non-existent 177th fighter wing WOULD have been able to scramble and intercept the second plane before it hit the second Trade Center tower! They would have been 8 minutes closer than the fighters coming out of Maine or Massachusetts, I can't remeber which.

    I doubt it would have made any difference in the Bush/Bush/Hussien scenario, with one tower going down, but lives could have been saved. By the way, Pomona is also the closet... was, also the closet on guard base to the Pentagon which was also hit!

    Well, I'm done with that little rant! What was the question?

    But, it is still left to those of us who have our eyes open to slap those who are "sheepwalking" from time to time and try to wake them! We have to make a conscious decision about where the line must be drawn between liberty and security! This goes to the people of all supposedly free nations, and we all need to understand just what "sabre-rattling" is, and not let ourselves get caught up in the fear of the day, but look at the long term.
    quote:Suddenly the sheepwalker on the other side of the fence is a moneygrabbing jew, a nigger, an 'injun', a tibetan, a commie, a capitalist, a wishy-washy liberal, and you certainly don't want your sister to marry one of THOSE, do you?
    PREJUDICE!!! It is a useful tool of the elitists on both sides of the political fence, especially if there exisists a disearnable difference in physical appearance from those who are being manipulated.
    quote:And so the circus starts again with trails of tears, sharing out of smallpox infected blankets...
    Looks like you did a little research! But, you have to understand... back then, the "red man" was considered to be an untrainable animal, so it was okay to thin out the population using whatever means were available. As to "The Crusades"... I hope there are enough people out here who don't have their heads up their butts to not let things go that far![V]
    quote:When I was in Ukarine, the country was literally split in the middle between pro-russian and pro-west sympathies
    This seems to be a matter of heritage. Many of the people in the east are of Russian heritage, where as in the west, they are more of Ukraine or various european decent, and it seems to almost be divided by the Dnipre.

    I recall Jens talking about plans to go to western Ukraine and speaking Russian. I believe my suggestion was to watch his approach with Russian in some parts of the west.

    In closing for today, I will say that your former Prime Minister's words can also be seen as altruistic patriotism. Just as long as it doesn't lead to a McCarthy like "witch hunt". You can trust that the power brokers here in the US will be watching closely as to what develops over there in Europe!

    Well, I need a beer! Say hey to great-grandfather badger for me![8D]


    Train returns

  3. #263
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    Hi PeopleS,

    sorry if my style has been somewhat 'cramped' lately. I hope this post will be enough of a change of topic. Or maybe it's just the same in a new packaging.

    As we talked quite a lot about earlier, all relating between two or more individuals can be based on different principles. The predatory, hierachial, darwinistic, reptilebrain-behaviour with power fights, which seems to be the most common method favoured by nature. On a mechanistic, passive basis, it can be said to be THE natural way.

    Or on the other hand the symbiotic approach, which while it does appear 'naturally' sometimes, isn't so common, especially not at the level of complex biological beings (as f.ex. human beings). To make symbiosis function to any significant degree requires some conscious effort. It's an uphill project.

    One of the hurdles in creating a symbiotic process (be it a personal relationship or a political system like democracy) is to diminish the instinctive attitude of: "Can I eat this, or will it eat me?", and instead create a sense of mutual trust and confidence.

    Where there's distrust and suspicion, all the slowly build up reciprocial goodwill towards 'the bad guys' will evaporate, and a more or less pronounced paranoia will grow. Not only at a national or ideological level, but also at the individual level.

    To take an example: Marriage, which used to be something based on love, attraction, respect etc (at least that was the ideal), seems now to be more and more like a 'social contract' you make for your own convenience. My point here isn't whether this is good or bad, but more as an expression of lessening trust. People marry the same way, as they would buy a second-handed car.

    Taking such a generally lowered level of trust to an extreme will create a lot of problems, possibly leading to major conflicts. The anti-dote, for getting through such a period unscathed, requires a lot of individual integrity, but also some kind of inner strength.

    Maybe I'm drawing too far-reaching conclusions, because I'm (over?)sensitive to the flow of social changes, but it's my personal impression, that we're reaching an ebb in humanity's search for symbiosis. I haven't been much out on dating-sites lately (I find them an excellent thermometer of social temperature, if you read them deeper), but what little I've noticed recently is, that the climate is definitely hardening. Not least on the site-owners' part. I've seen examples of completely outrageous charges on a monthly basis, for promised services at 'snake-oil' quality.

    People must be rather desperate to hook on to such absurd propositions. Any opinions?


  4. #264

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    quote:Originally posted by swede

    Hi PeopleS,
    (...)
    To take an example: Marriage, which used to be something based on love, attraction, respect etc (at least that was the ideal), seems now to be more and more like a 'social contract' you make for your own convenience. My point here isn't whether this is good or bad, but more as an expression of lessening trust. People marry the same way, as they would buy a second-handed car.
    (...)
    People must be rather desperate to hook on to such absurd propositions. Any opinions?
    Hi Swede,

    the main partner of any marriage contract in Germany, Switzerland or Austria is not one of the fiancees who are going to sign it right now. The main partner in this contract is the state!

    The state might give a small tax advantage as expression of a certain protection in order to honorate family building and creation of children (new soldiers, new workforce, reproduction of the citizenship).

    Whenever it comes to separation and divorce the separating parties will get to know that the state has been the strongest and main partner in that marriage issue. In that moment the man will note that the state makes him bankrupt by paying all the alimentation to his ex wife and children based on a calculation with such figures like "fictive income". His payments have to be done in real Euro banknotes, fictive one are not accepted!

    The second not so weak partner in the marriage contract is the woman. Her living standard is guaranteed by having chosen the Mr. Right for what she considers "good life". Her children will always be difficult in periods of separation and divorce so that she cannot work officially and catches the alimentation amounts every month plus financial support from the state. And children are always property of the mothers. This is a non-official very strict law.

    The only loser is the man in such marriage contract. He is the payer of all. He works to pay alimentation. He works to pay the tax amount which passes over to his divorced exwife plus children. His living standard is not guaranteed at all! He can continue to work fulltime but what he gets out is not more as the amount which receives a poor social guy from the state to survive.

    Please don't name this "justice".

    Best regards from Belgium,
    Goddiejens

  5. #265
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    Greetings swede and Jens! Some months ago, the comparison between symbiosis and modern marriages was looked at. I believe that my thoughts were that marriage, in many cases, is as close as humans get to symbiotic relationships, although relationships are symbiotic in their nature. A basic friendship can be considered symbiotic. Each person in the friendship is giving and taking companionship to and from the other in some form.

    The same is true of marriage. Thinking in terms of the "traditional" marriage, the man works and provides food, clothing, shelter and maybe some token tributes (flowers, jewelry, etc) to his mate. The woman gives the maintenance of their home, cooking of meals and of course sexual favors. In between, both provide a level of companionship to the other.

    There is almost always a factor of "love" involved in there somewhere, although it has been noted to be in varying degrees from marriage to marriage. Mind you that I place "arranged" marriages in a different, but similar symbiotic category. These types of marriages are more of a symbiosis between family arrangers than they are of the actual individuals being wed.

    Jens, you can add the US to your list of "marriage contract" states. The difference here is that getting married is actully a tax penalty! The tax rate on a married couple is actually higher than it is on a single person. Deductions are given for dependent children, but it still doesn't seem to offset the difference in the higher rate. This is the reason why so many couples choose to "live together" as opposed to getting married.

    In some, but not all states, if a couple cohabitates for a certain length of time, I believe seven years to be the most common, they are viewed as being married under "common law". Under this law, everything applies to the relationship except the taxation of income, but in a split, the woman gets the same lion(ness)'s share of the property and man's future income just as she would in a "traditional" marriage.



    Train returns

  6. #266
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    Sorry about the delay, but I've been busy trying to save the swedish constitution. As the swedish seem to be devoid of much humour, I've unfortunately been unable to make mad priests or Olgas part of my debating. For me a severe handicap.

    At a grander scale, it looks as if the predatory model is gaining in popularity, most openly expressed in politics, religion and economics, but (I have a feeling) also at the individual level.

    All this probably passes by the average sheepwalker, who will only experience the occasional divorce, mental breakdown or cancelled TV-football match. Maybe such re-occurences of insanity is a sign of cycles of cosmic energy.

    What I really think is interesting is the anti-dote: Symbiosis. We have almost threshed the subject to death, so I will in true psychobabbling-style go on to a next box reveiling itself inside the symbiosis subject.

    As symbiosis is somewhat 'un-natural', it requires an effort and a change to arrive at. And I remember you once saying, PeopleS, that you found change difficult. So do I at the present, I seem to be stuck in some rather uninspirering and half-empty routines. Introspection only leads to finding a deep tiredness, with little motivation for anything.

    Well, I still have my curiousity at least, which prevents this from being a post of embarrasing selfpity. Could be, that some of you out there have some observations based on a broader statistical basis, than the two persons I have contact with in a week on an average (that is actually weeks, where socializing gets out of hand. Mostly it's more quiet). So don't hesitate, flood the thread with answers.

  7. #267
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    Hey swede! Good luck in your efforts to save Sweden from itself... or should I say from it's own political machine.
    quote:As symbiosis is somewhat 'un-natural', it requires an effort and a change to arrive at.
    I have to disagree. Symbiosis in some form or another, seems very natural. Think bees and flowers. Bees rely on flowers to collect nectar, and the flowers use the bees to spread their pollen from flower to flower thus feritiling them. This relationship is said to be the key to all life on this rock we call Earth!

    I see friendships as a form of symbiosis. Each person gives and takes something from the relationship. And coupling is much the same. Okay, it may not be the type of symbiosis that you originally were thinking of, I would imagine being total inter-dependence, but these are forms of symbiosis none the less.

    These types of symbiotic relationships are pretty common, and have been going on for... a really long time!

    In some ways, which perhaps only my twisted mind can equate, sheepwalkers and reptile brains have a form of symbiosis between them. Sheepwalkers need the reptile brains to protect them and to tell them what to do. Reptile brains need the sheepwalkers to fight the wars and give them the power they so desire.

    I quit smoking on Sunday!!! So I may not be as lucid as usual?[8D]





    Train returns

  8. #268
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    Hi PeopleS,

    as always your answer made me in a good mood. You have this talent, even when we disagree.

    To define and clarify the concept of symbiosis I propose to take nature as a starting-point. Nature as in plants, bushes, trees, wild animals (except badgers ofcourse) etc. Humans are too complicated to use as a basis for looking at the subject at first.

    Being a peasant of 25 years standing (mostly; even peasant have to lie down to sleep occasionally) I have seen predation and symbiosis expressed clearly on my farm. My impression is, that predation makes up about 80% of the activities. Apart from bees as you mentioned, I can see f.ex. grass and clover as another example. They have an exchange of oxygen and nitrogen beneficial to both parts.

    Both predation and symbiosis at this level seems to be purely mechanistic, created by 'blind' evolutionary forces, where no conscious choices are involved.

    If we now go to the level of more complex beings, like mammals, my guess is, that the 80/20 ratio between predation and symbiosis isn't far off the mark. If a group of sheepwalkers are involved in a catastrophe situation, say a big fire, very few would react 'noble', decent towards others (with the possible exception of friends or family), but try to save themselves regardless of the consequences of their actions on the surroundings. People getting stuck in a door, blocking it up, trampling each other to death kind-of-thing. Not to mention the morbid curiousity, which prevents police, ambulances or firebrigades to get through a crowd of street theater audience (the last one I've experienced first-hand here).

    Those of us who have a wish to develop towards a higher degree of symbiosis (as individuals or as a social form) will also contain such instinctive, reptile-brain impulses. To change towards symbiosis requires a change of these reptile impulses and this can only be done by a conscious effort.

    The general failure of WM and FSUW dating can possibly be a result of such inability or unwillingness to change. It's still: "What can I get from this?" Very little thought of: "What can WE get from this?" arises.

    This is ofcourse also the situation in both US and Europe, but the WM/FSUW relation have some strong incitements, which ought to make it ideal. The FSUW being intelligent, well-educated, lovely and most of all feminine and the WM being a good family provider (good income and not drinking half of it up in a bar).

    But this equation doesn't seem to add up. Something goes wrong on the way.

    As always (a bit tiresome) I see a pattern in both the big and the small, suggesting an underlying common denominator. Just as the warbuffs seem to have the time of their life now, so the ability for the individual to manage his/her own life is also a mess at the present.

    For now I'll just put ?????? as to what and how.

    PS Sorry to hear about the smoking. What about beer and sex; next on the list?

  9. #269
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    Hey swede! I hope you continue to fight the good fight against the high and mighty who seek to relieve the people of Sweden of their personal thoughts and beliefs! My only fears are that you may not take into account that to fight a reptile brain system, you will need to think as a reptile brain, and if you do this, that you will become one without realizing. Although, I personally like to think that you have already taken these factors into account.

    The issue of symbiosis is something that you need to define. You speak of a need for change among humans to achieve a symbiotic state, but I see symbiosis of different types, everywhere I look, particularly as I said about the "natural" desire to couple. I see symbiosis as being a very natural state, both in nature and amongst humans and other "higher" intellectual creatures.

    I can even see a twisted form of symbiosis between preditor and prey, which, although not necessarily beneficial to the individual, is certainly beneficial to each species.

    An example of this is wolf and deer. Wolves hunt and eat deer. Only the fastest and strongest deer escape to breed. Wolves flourish, but hunting becomes scarce. The slow and weak begin to die off. Now the faster, stronger deer begin to flourish. Only the fastest, strongest and most cunning wolves can catch them. The wolf population becomes stronger. The individual does not necessarily benefit, but both species have become stronger.

    Now watch this... FSU/MOB scamming! Scammers are the preditors, dumb WMs are the prey. Scammers get money, WMs get smarter and share information, scammers develop new hooks, WMs learn and get smarter... The individual may or may not benefit, but each group becomes better because of the interaction.

    The problem I see with "real" FSUWs and "sincere" WMs is unrealistic hopes and expectations brought about by the industry of FSU/MOB dating sites. Yes, FSUWs are different from western women, but they ARE still women!!! And WMs are different from FSUMs, but we ARE still men! When both sides come to this realization, the act of symbiotic coupling will be so much simpler!

    Well, the not smoking thing hasn't driven me to kill anyone... yet. But then again, not smoking is far from a reason for me to kill someone!!! I have plenty of reasons to do that!!!!!

    Beer will NEVER be on my list of things not to do, and as for sex, it's been a good year for drinking... Need I say more?[xx(]



    Train returns

  10. #270
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    REVISED!

    Cit PeopleS:

    "My only fears are that you may not take into account that to fight a reptile brain system, you will need to think as a reptile brain, and if you do this, that you will become one without realizing. Although, I personally like to think that you have already taken these factors into account."

    You are depressingly correct, and to my shame, I've only recently learned it. I'm at the present having a heated discussion with a guy, who follows a strict McCarthy ideology. You must dismantle democracy to protect democracy etc. What he really means is ofcourse, that there's this other gang of alpha males, and now he wants to shoot it out with them, to see who's the topdog. The political ideology, thin as it is, is only a pretext to start a fight.

    Aaaargh.


    Cit PeopleS:

    "The individual does not necessarily benefit, but both species have become stronger."

    Yes, correct, But what's the purpose of that? In the end we'll only have super-species being eaten or eating each other.

    My definition of true symbiosis is more 'purist' than yours. The process must be volentary/not involve force and a two-way direct exchange must take place. No making mother nature into the great recycling leveller.

    Disregarding the ratio of 'natural' predation/symbiosis, my point (when talking about a change towards symbiosis) is, that this change is a change OF attitudes of predation INTO symbiosis. Maybe evolution can do this, but it takes eternities. A quick change must be a conscious choice.

    Your observations about WM and FSUW are pragmatically correct, as far as I can see. What makes me wonder is, why very few people can see, that symbiosis is so much more effective than predation. At least at the human level.

    Apart from the direct criminally minded professional scammers, I believe that the average relatively decent, and only slightly greedy, FSUW are not happy with the present situation. 'It's either this stupid millionaire or nothing' is abysmal idiocy.

    Guess I have to get rid of my naive optimism and concentrate on gloomy, realistic misanthropy and start accepting, that a lot of people are terminally stupid.

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