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Thread: psychobabbling

  1. #21
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    When they get a new, complicated gadget, most people would read the manual first. But unfortunately we very complex human beings are born without manuals. So we have to write them ourselves on our way through life. Trying to create an inner map. This is a big part of awareness.

    An example. I guess the majority share my experience, that we can't control negative emotions completely by the help of rational thinking or selfdiscipline. It's like such emotions have their own life and follow rules, we do not always understand. We all know, what havoc emotions can create, both individually or collectively, so it would be a great step forward to get a grip on them. This is but one example of lacking selfknowledge.

    Many years ago I tried to follow a very selfdisciplinary method associated with yoga. After a few years I quit, because it actually seemed to enlarge the problems instead of diminishing them. I think, we are so complex, that black/white answers will not fit. Now I try "nudge" and balance myself in the direction, I have set in life. Like you would do with a small, obstinate child. It is a slow process, so like PeopleS I am also not enlightened. But it does give results.

    You learn a little about yourself, then you use this knowledge, until you have control of the known area. After that you can expand a bit more, and so on. It's like orienting yourself in a new city. You find landmarks in an ever expanding circle, so in the end you know your way around.

    This method has been used in various religious connections, but works just as well as a purely psychological tool. The early Hinayana buddhism f.ex. isn't very interested in gods etc., but used such inner maps and training.

    Sadly the cyberdating FSUW are as far removed from doing this, as it is possible to be. Their distorted dreamscapes/fantasies are the complete opposite. They live in an almost total illusion, and they don't have any wish of changing. They live, as if there is no tomorrow.

    For me this has been the main reason for my scepticism against them. I do not believe anyone, including myself, to be perfect. So change is sometimes needed to grow into a relationship.Try make a FSUW change, and you'll be up to a wall of reinforced concrete.

    As Ham correctly tells, you can even risk retaliation of the most bizare kind. Both on internet (the ultrafemininsts for a while had their own anti-scam site, where anyone daring to scamreport a woman, were put out as male scammers). Or by having to fight endless legal fights, if they get a foot in a western country.

  2. #22
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    So ham, you basically agree with my assessment of what the Bible really is... a translated "version" of stories told centuries before, manipultated to please, if not the king who commissioned the work, but possibly the masses who would be preached to believe in and follow their teachings as FACT?
    quote:Most men underestimate the consequences of being scammed or failing and think that real life will roll as easy as banding with a few sociopaths online to harass a clown named Ham.
    Personally, I don't always agree with what you have to say, but I respect your opinions, insight and knowledge. You've prevented me from making a mistake or three.[:I]
    quote: I guess the majority share my experience, that we can't control negative emotions completely
    It's often said that fear is the strongest of emotions. It's primal and basic to any living thing with any degree of self-awareness. It is said that to control one's fear is the beginning toward enlightenment. However, fear comes in many forms and is not necessarily know to the one attempting to gain control of it. Imagination has a lot to do with it as well. We can't take control of a fear we have not imagined yet, therefore it remains a constant threat to acheiving inner peace which leads to enlightenment.

    It's also possible that such a step is physically out of reach for humans today, due to simple brain chemistry and that such change is something that can only be acheived through millenia of evolution? I believe our brains, no matter how much we may try to control them, are pre-programmed with certain basic information that we simply cannot ignore, reprogram or de-program.
    quote:Sadly the cyberdating FSUW are as far removed from doing this, as it is possible to be. Their distorted dreamscapes/fantasies are the complete opposite. They live in an almost total illusion, and they don't have any wish of changing. They live, as if there is no tomorrow.
    I don't blame them for having such veiws. I try to understand that these women are not so far removed from the Soviet days and still believe in the fantastic things they have been told about the west. If I grew up standing in line to get a roll of toilet paper, I'd probably believe the stories of the west as being a land of milk and honey too. Anything is better than standing in line for a roll of toilet paper!

    As for the feminists who may be tuning in, ladies don't get your boxers in a bunch! There will never be true equality of the sexes. Equality means both can do exactly what the other can with no discernable difference. Never happen!!! I will never get pregnant and ,although I'm sure some of you have tried, you will never be able to write your name in the snow without moving your feet!

    We don't need to be equal. It is what was intended. Sure, anything that requires brain power, a woman can do as well as any man, but that's where it ends. Men and women were not created equal. Equal meaning the same. It's the differences that make life worth living!

    Send all hate mail to...

    This kind of brings up another point about FSU/MOB dating. Isn't it the differences between what we as men know and expect from the women at home and the stories we hear about FSUW's that draws us to them in the first place?


    Train returns

  3. #23
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    quote:if not the king who commissioned the work, but possibly the masses who would be preached to believe in and follow their teachings as FACT?
    well, churches adapt to the way the wind of the day blows.
    Catholics were putting burning charcoal between the feet of negroes or indios for centuries, to hear their screams, so that a priest could assess whether they had a soul or not.
    Today if you don't say colored people are "just awesome", catholics will say you're a sinner because lord Jeetz luvd dem all.

    [)][)]

    There were many highly esteemed dogmas being enforced for CENTURIES, EG the cult of various gospel, the cult of "auxiliary saints" etc with full church approval.
    Later, under the influence of scandals that threatened their secular power (the catholic church has probably more gold & valuables in store than the United States ), they were very quick to clip edges off, say banning gospels and banning the concept of auxiliary saints under the influence of lutheran upheaval.
    Auxiliary saints were a small group (14) of saints on whom god supposedly bestowed god-like powers to act as its assistants.
    The dogma claiming the pope is infallible is a XIX century invention to counter declining secular power threatened by events in Italy, and so forth.

    quote:This kind of brings up another point about FSU/MOB dating. Isn't it the differences between what we as men know and expect from the women at home and the stories we hear about FSUW's that draws us to them in the first place?
    well, one important reason people hate me so much is that I rub their chipped shoulders the wrong way. They want the fantasy; they want hair to grow back; they want trim waists in only 60 days with no effort soever; they want to "turn ten dollars into a thousand within one week using our proprietary forex trading scheme"; they want women young enough to be their (grand)daughters, but they want them with 1950s moral standards and hot as hell, too.
    Isn't it a bit too much Barney? and you, Pedro? and Jamal? and Wong?
    It'd be oh-so-nice, but we can't have it all...women are women after all, from another country, not another planet.
    Bruce Lee was a gifted individual who had ambitions as philosopher (he has a philosophy B.A I think ); he was a cha-cha dancing champ, but he's famous only because of his martial arts skills.

    Salesmen are the best philosophers and psychologists, for they must do it quick and do it right; attention spans of readers or listeners are extremely volatile, so there is no second chance.
    So basically they sell men fairy tales telling men what(ever) they want to hear, no matter how far-fetched, risky or nonsensical.
    Used cars come to mind...low batteries, unpaid road taxes, real mileages, rust, holed exhausts etc are shunned whichever possible way.
    They even lie about trivialities; they lied to me and said a car (repossessed unpaid for loan ) had "arrived just yesterday", while I called a specialized agency & found out the car had been sitting there for ELEVEN MONTHS...nothing wrong with that, but why did they lie?
    It becomes their second nature to misrepresent, twist, massage...every used car -according to them- was driven only by nice old ladies who used the car to go grocery shopping.
    WWW/LD dating isn't different.
    A snail-mail penpal (not dating) club claims over the internet about countless wonderful friendships it fostered, and that they have a sizable % of members into steady correspondence with each other for DECADES...
    Well, I tried that stuff a long time ago and no correspondence lasted more than a few months at best...come think of it, when you loose touch with old friends and see them after years, you both are more similar to complete strangers than beer buddies meeting every night.
    Sure, every provider wants to sugar coat and make its services look just great, but many men take that literally, and it is when trouble begin.

  4. #24
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    Cit PeopleS:

    "It's often said that fear is the strongest of emotions. It's primal and basic to any living thing with any degree of self-awareness. It is said that to control one's fear is the beginning toward enlightenment. However, fear comes in many forms and is not necessarily know to the one attempting to gain control of it. Imagination has a lot to do with it as well. We can't take control of a fear we have not imagined yet, therefore it remains a constant threat to acheiving inner peace which leads to enlightenment."

    Yes, there is fear and then there is fear. The fear you feel, if you meet a man-eating tiger, has a very high physical survival value., and as such is "good". Only those who have read to many idealized stories about enlightened masters, would try the: "Kitty, kitty, niiiice kitty" approach, when meeting a tiger. On the other hand the common fear of dentists is a case of un-necessary negative emotions. For a period I experimented with the actual pain connected with dentistry, and I discovered, that it doesn't hurt that much. It was mostly a case of imaginary, negative expectations. As to the sofar unknown fears, I try to tackle them, as they come. I have still have enough known fears to keep me occupied.

    Cit. PeopleS:

    "It's also possible that such a step is physically out of reach for humans today, due to simple brain chemistry and that such change is something that can only be acheived through millenia of evolution? I believe our brains, no matter how much we may try to control them, are pre-programmed with certain basic information that we simply cannot ignore, reprogram or de-program."

    We certainly can't reprogram everything overnight. And even if we could, it's doubtful if everybody would want to do so. But we are not completely helpless victims of our own programs. There exist various, quite effective methods, which pragmatically have proved functional. It's possible to learn to control bloodpressure and pulse to a certain degree. We can learn to strengthen our immunity-defense system, we can learn to relax from excessive stresssymptoms etc. At a more mental level, we can also learn to control our thoughts, as far as to create "inner silence" (though this is difficult). Sometimes it isn't even necessary to live in a cave a number of years to do all this. We have f.ex. biofeed-back technologies, which do 80% of the job for us.

    That such a re-programmimg can be slow and troublesome, I know. But a journey on 1000 miles starts with the first step.

    Whether FSUW behave as they do, because of the impact Sovjet had on their culture, is an open question. The old argument between supporters of social or genetic explanations for human behaviour isn't over yet. Other cultures with simililar political systems haven't developed the FSUW-greed syndrom to such a degree. "The american dream" is fundamentally the same, and the majority of americans haven't queued for toiletpaper for generations. Personally I believe, that social impact and genetic background weights 50/50 on an average. But some individuals react more strong individually to one or the other factor.

    In any case, my somewhat obsessive preoccupation with awareness also points to a third possibilty. The idea of "raising awareness" must ofcourse be based on the possibility of having a "free will". If you want to change, this is a choice, .. a decision. "Free will" has an almost esoteric quality. We choose, because we choose to choose. This can't be reduced to a set of predetermined factors like social impact or genes. Quantumphysics GIVES us the possibilty of rejecting predeterminism.

    I do not try to deny, that we mostly are biological robots. I'm only saying, that we also have other options, no matter how small or difficult they are.

    It is significant, that the world is divided into two fundamental existential ideologies, exoterically expressed as religions. The western variety: Judaism, christianity and islam, and the eastern hinduism, buddhism, taoism, tantrism and gnosticism (the latter is not, as many believe, a christian splintersect). The "western" religions generally postulates a creator, who is perfect ("Good", allknowing, allpowerful etc).. If you can't see this, it's because you are "stoopid", and in any case you are not supposed to understand it, his ways are mysterious and "faith" is the only thing, you have to care about..... OR ELSE..... you will have it coming. Remember that according to the bible-inspired worldviews, the whole mess started with Eve and Adam eating from the tree of knowledge. Such a point of view can naturally be used for manipulative purposes."Stop trying to find answers, and do as we say". The "eastern" religions often center around the concept of "knowledge" (eg. "realisation, gnosis etc"), based upon mental and practical techniques for finding awareness, and care less about gods. As a staunch liberal, I'm naturally inclined to sympathize more with the eastern way.

    It's my conviction, that if Jesus incarnated in the west today, he would be crucified as a heretic.

    Cit. PeopleS:

    "This kind of brings up another point about FSU/MOB dating. Isn't it the differences between what we as men know and expect from the women at home and the stories we hear about FSUW's that draws us to them in the first place?"

    Ofcourse the grass is always greener on the other side of the stream.

    Ham. Agreed generally. I hope you don't take it negatively, when I sometimes propose an extension of the obvious epistemological questions put here. Your analysis of the situation is correct; what I try to do is to peel still another layer of the existential onion. What will be the next reasonable set of questions (and answers)at a deeper level?




  5. #25
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    quote:well, churches adapt to the way the wind of the day blows.
    Maybe, but we're talking hurricane force winds. Although I'm not Catholic, I have some very good friends who are so I know some about their belief system. Other faiths and denominations of Christianity may be more easily influenced to change with the current times, but the Catholic church is seemingly steadfast in it's unwillingness to change. Yes, there have been some changes, but these are changes that come well after the rest of the religious world has already moved forward.

    As for the gold stash in Vatican City, this to me is a major part of what has managed to influence the Catholic church and others to make the changes they have seen fit to make. Organized religion has been slowly dying for decades as the real world moves forward with technology, space exploration, etc, religion and what it "sells" has lost it's shine. "Faith" simply doesn't cut it with a majority of the young, and then you also have those who are akin to my way of looking at "the big picture".

    Declining church attendance, whether the cause is youthful discontent with the traditional ways, granny's hip hurts too much to go anymore so she now gets her religious fill watching her favorite TV preacher or people who are fed up with stories of the priest and the alter boy, much of the so called organized religious world is running short of... MONEY! My personal feeling is that the big churches don't really care about spreading the gospel quite as much as money, power and influence.

    As for my personal veiws on "the big picture", I believe in a God. Okay, science tells us about the "BIG BANG". Okay. So where did all of these elements and other building blocks of existance come from? If everything came from this "big bang", what created "the bang"? I believe there was a really insightful, peace loving guy name Jesus Christ who walked the earth telling stories of something he believed in his heart would give mental and emotional peace to the people around him. What his birthright was, I can't say one way or the other, but I believe there was such a man. Miracles??? Taking two paddles, putting them on a dead man's chest and bring him back to life would have been "miracle" to even men as well respected as Socrates, Da Vinci or even Confucious! Who really knows all of what took place over two thousand years ago? We all know how stories can grow and evolve from telling to telling. And at the same time, sometimes thing actually do happen that science can't fully explain! Basically, I refuse to close my mind to the impossible or improbable.

    As to ham's comments about salesmen, isn't that what FSU/MOB dating and scamming is all about? I've said before that regardless of who places an ad profile on any of the many sites, real girl, scammer, real guy, sex tourist, it's all about "selling" yourself or a fantasy. Real girls try to "sell" themselves to prospective mates, as do real guys. Scam artists try to "sell" their fantasy to uninformed guys in order to get money and the sex tourists try to "sell" themselves to real girls so they can fly to wherever to have sex and then brag about it to their equally screwed up pals.

    No matter who places the ad, it all boils down to making a "sale". The big difference between buying a used car and buying into what your FSU/MOB beauty is "selling" is that you can see the car and drive it before you buy. It costs a plane ticket and the price of a room to go test drive your FSUW, or find out that you've been writing to Boris for the passed three months or more.

    quote:Only those who have read to many idealized stories about enlightened masters, would try the: "Kitty, kitty, niiiice kitty" approach, when meeting a tiger.
    Let's not confuse fear with utter stupidity! I know you do not. However, it must also be understood that fear is what I would have to consider to be one of the two strongest pre-programs that we have, the other being self-preservation, which is very much tied to fear. A peaceful man who is drafted into war and made a soldier is often a good example of both. In a few, fear of dying, fear of being maimed, or just the fear of the horror that surrounds them becomes censory overload and they crumble, but for most, the basic instinct of self-preservation takes control and they will "kill or be killed", no matter how deplorable killing may be to the individual.

    Yes, there are those rare individuals who have learned to "control" their fear and other pre-programming to a level that is out of reach to most, including myself. Most of these people reach this level through some form of belief system be it western or eastern. As a child of seventies American TV, a show called "Kung Fu" brought eastern philosophy to mainstream America. The main character of this show was a Shaolin munk who wanders the American old west searching for his brother. (As I understand, Bruce Lee was considered for the starring role, but lost out in part because of his poor English) It was a popular show because of the martial arts displays, but it also brought eastern philosophy to the masses in the US. (Albeit diluted and deluded a bit) Basically, peace and harmony with the world around you can only be acheived when you can find these things with yourself.

    Free will is not a factor in the equation as I see it. We all have the freedom to choose. (Unless you're a complete "sheepwalker") It's other factors that influence our choices that we must cope with and understand.

    Train returns

  6. #26
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    I really must buy you two guys a beer one day. I enjoy your contributions.

    Cit.PeopleS:
    "As for my personal views on "the big picture", I believe in a God. Okay, science tells us about the "BIG BANG". Okay. So where did all of these elements and other building blocks of existance come from? If everything came from this "big bang", what created "the bang"?"

    In the end, this is ofcourse a question of personal faith. Personally I will go along with you a long way, because I also believe in an "architect" (though I prefer to avoid the word god, as it has so many associations to religious belief-systems). And don't mind about science, after quantum physics got recognized, a lot of things changed. Now it is housebroken to talk about "intelligent design" as a possible explanation for the banging. Though there exist several competing theories, I find I.D. as the most reasonable, as it is supported by strong arguments.

    I have gone a step further and formed opinions of this possible designing intelligence. Won't go into technical details, but only conclude that a designer of universe(s), should have included much more symbiosis in his workmanship. The universe is build upon and regulated by some fundamental laws, but these laws are not necessarily beneficient for the single parts of the universe. At least for biological life, evolutionary "stronger-eat-weaker" is the "natural" state.

    If we want to develop any humanistic ideals, however small they are, we work uphill. It's not "natural" to be idealistic. So I believe, we have to be "un-natural" to develop ideals, awareness, enlightenment. Or just plain decent.We must put ourselves above natural laws (hope it's understood, that for me un-natural doesn't mean any kind of vile perversions, quite the contrary).

    PeopleS, how do you think of "freedom to choose"? If it's only a question of taking the most appealing of several options, it's not freedom, but simply a mechanical reaction to external factors.

    For me freedom to choose is when we are outside the natural laws and can decide our own fate. Then we truly have "magic", and I strongly believe, that a few individuals in human history have reached that level. Even in the present age, we occasionally hear about "extra-normal" phenomenon, which can'.t be explained, like OOBEs (out-of-body-experiences). Had a few myself, so this is firsthand experience. (Won't enlarge this idea, because this is not the place to expand on it. I'm not missionary).

    But ofcourse until we develop some degree of awareness, we are robots blindly following mechanical laws. There's nothing revolutionary about such an idea, it's a central part of f.ex. buddhism (I'm not a buddhist).

    Strangely enough all this leads me back to our main subject. Scamming. My thesis is, that scamming is actually a "natural" part of life, being a special variety of the general predating principle. If my ideas are correct, we then only have one option (if we operate under "natural" laws), and that is to stop being prey.

    I have no wish of turning this forum into a place of theological discussions. I hope, everybody reading this will understand, that the above is one man's opinion, and that I respect what others may think/believe about such subjects.



  7. #27
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    quote:In the end, this is ofcourse a question of personal faith. Personally I will go along with you a long way, because I also believe in an "architect" (though I prefer to avoid the word god, as it has so many associations to religious belief-systems). And don't mind about science, after quantum physics got recognized, a lot of things changed. Now it is housebroken to talk about "intelligent design" as a possible explanation for the banging. Though there exist several competing theories, I find I.D. as the most reasonable, as it is supported by strong arguments.
    Ah my friend, but does your inability to make such a leap of faith then limit your own potential to some degree? And if not to "leap", simply acknowlegde the possibility?

    Religion dictates that anything we can't explain is an act of God or Satan. Science says everything has an explanation, we just haven't found it yet. I believe that there is an explanation for everything, but that it's possible the explanation is God or Satan??? What a rush!!!!

    My whole point is that God is a possibility. You yourself refer to "intelligent design". To me, I.D. is simply science's way of saying we have no clue, maybe there is a God, but we crapped on that idea for so long that we have to call it something else in order to save face.

    As I contemplate what enlightenment is, I have to believe that being able to accept all of the possiblities that exist is a part of the path. I admit that I find it hard to accept EVERYTHING. I attribute this in part to my basic primal programming, the programming I received from my parents and the programming I've received from, yes, socio-economic factors of the area I grew up.

    I will often point out my own shortcomings as I see them, as I do attempt to leave my ego at the door here. I think that self awareness is also partly a matter of being able to take an honest look at yourself and acknowledge your limitations while striving to overcome them.
    quote:If we want to develop any humanistic ideals, however small they are, we work uphill. It's not "natural" to be idealistic. So I believe, we have to be "un-natural" to develop ideals, awareness, enlightenment. Or just plain decent.We must put ourselves above natural laws (hope it's understood, that for me un-natural doesn't mean any kind of vile perversions, quite the contrary).
    I have to disagree. As I have spoken of evolution toward a more enlightened state of being, I feel this part of mankind's evolution has already taken place millenia ago.

    The caveman sought only to survive until tomorrow and reproduce, and even reproduction was only a by-product of something a bit more primal to his nature.

    No, modern man dreams of more. We seek more than we presently have both materialistically and idealistically. Our problem is that we can't figure out how to get it, or in our fast food world, how to get it in ten minutes or less! Is this greed? Not necessarily. Science is a part of the dream to find more, and science in and of itself is not a bad thing.
    quote:Strangely enough all this leads me back to our main subject. Scamming. My thesis is, that scamming is actually a "natural" part of life, being a special variety of the general predating principle. If my ideas are correct, we then only have one option (if we operate under "natural" laws), and that is to stop being prey
    From the first time Ugg the caveman reached behind Brap the caveman and tapped him on the opposite shoulder to make him look the other way while Ugg swiped his chunk of mammoth flesh and then pointed to the sky claiming a pterodactyl swooped down and stole it, humans have been scamming one another in one way or another. Fsu scammers are nothing new, they just have a new medium.


    Train returns

  8. #28
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    Cit PeopleS:
    "My whole point is that God is a possibility. You yourself refer to "intelligent design". To me, I.D. is simply science's way of saying we have no clue, maybe there is a God, but we crapped on that idea for so long that we have to call it something else in order to save face."

    No, I definitely believe, there is some creative force "behind" the bang. But I'm ofcourse uncertain of, what it is. So I avoid using a word, which already has some copyrights attached to it. Words have a tendency to create things, if they are used carelessly.
    (General semantics, Count Korzybski).

    The idea of a paternal grandfather in a white nightshirt doesn't really fit in with my vague expectations. But I'm not one of those, who want to use science as a shield. Science is as much a beliefsystem, as religion is, though there are some useful aspects in both. So I neither reject or totally accept any of them. Or for that sake, any other belief-systems.

    I don't want to believe. I want to KNOW, to experience "reality".
    "Being there" stuff. Such is possible, but very difficult to acchieve.

    Having occasionally had small glimpses of the awareness-state, it is my experience, that what we at the present call and use as "explanations" are insufficient in this extradimensional being. I think, that when a person gets there, an almost complete revision of
    the rules we live after here, will take place.

  9. #29
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    quote:Maybe, but we're talking hurricane force winds.
    oh no, a strong gust of wind will do, too.
    The easiest example is shame and contempt thrown at colored people & illegal aliens for centuries, who have in recent decades become the cream of the holy crop of salvation...because churches are empty, seminars close down, monasteries open in year 1100 close down. Who'll run the petty, street side of the show in a few decades? Beggars can't be choosers, so who's left to free ride the church for an education? Mostly Kongo and Akeem from the land of sky-high AIDS and disease. Even the rage about latino people died quickly in a couple decades. They even hoped Ahmed and Abdul would do, but after weaseling in behind the "Jeeztz luvd uz 'ol ", they set up mosques and tell horrible things about jews, dead or living.



    quote:much of the so called organized religious world is running short of... MONEY!
    WRONG.
    The Popes have been amassing wealth for the last 2000 years; the oldest known european government (french) is only less than half that age.
    Money is not a concern, but people, labour force, working bees. That is how Akeem and Kongo are now fine and dandy: because none else is left, willing to take the job.
    Religion -with all its myths and bedtime stories about superheroes short of hood&cape- serves as social stabilizer and control mechanism.
    No longer, because as of now everybody and everything would just do... illegal aliens, sexual deviants, murderers...
    I am not saying good or bad, but I am saying the social control/pressure item is gone, when churches are too desperate for adepts to overlook basics they have preached for millennia.
    Once religion's social role is gone, why would anyone pay attention to bedtime stories and faulty narratives about fictional superheroes?
    Back to the topic...
    Wasn't mentioned here that a good way to find "traditional western women" today is within very conservative religions such as Mormons, World Church of the Creator etc etc? It is not that their bedtime stories are truer or better than the old ones, but it is about the fact the social pressure/control role of these denominations is still active, at least infinitely more active than old chistianity.

    quote:As I understand, Bruce Lee was considered for the starring role, but lost out in part because of his poor English
    KUNG FU was actually Bruce Lee's format; he invented it, but was cheated because he was chinese and producers didn't think masses were ready for a chinese as main actor. Lee spoke excellent English and had a US B.A. Listen to his interviews to find out. He spoke fluent Japanese as well.

    quote:I have no wish of turning this forum into a place of theological discussions. I hope, everybody reading this will understand, that the above is one man's opinion, and that I respect what others may think/believe about such subjects.
    opinions are like feet...

  10. #30
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    Cit Ham:
    "opinions are like feet..."
    Sorry Ham, my english is not not suffiencient enough to understand this.

    As far as I know, the roman church was almost bankrupt at the beginning of the 20th century, and they called in a banker to bring order in the finances. Ironically enough this man was a jew.

    Apart from this, I also do not have a great love for organised religion. Even in Tibet, with its otherwise likeable people and peaceful worldwiev (50 years ago) parts of the higher religious circles used or condoned the use of serfs. These serfs were in reality more or less slaves. (I have this firsthand from a man, who lived 11 years there illegally).

    But any kind of human group will give possibility for parasites, probably even down to the local stamp-collecting club.


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