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Thread: psychobabbling

  1. #31
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    quote: Cit Ham:
    "opinions are like feet..."
    there are two versions of this saying:
    1 opinions are like feet: everybody got 2 and they damn stink
    2 opinions are like a$$holes: everybody got one, and it damn stinks


  2. #32
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    Hi Ham,

    correct me, if I misinterpret you and/or draw conclusions, which you disagree with.


    As I see it, opinions are what I call "belief-systems" (be they political, religious or how to collect stamps the "proper" way), and without exception we all start somewhere with a set of preconceived ideas of what is "right" or "wrong" in life. It may be something as epistomologically convoluted as the Cartesian: "I think, therefore I am", or the alley-bum: "I drink, therefore I am". And from there we go on trying to spread our personal message about how, we would like the world to look.


    Sometimes with a holy book in one hand and a sword in the other, sometimes with a Wall street disinformation theory about monopolcapitalism disguised as new-liberalism.


    And we try to "explain" all our various models of life by using hypothesis or theories of this or that. Evolution-theory justifying the predator's ever expanding need of "lebensraum", the egghead's shaking off responsibility: "Well, I just build this bomb. It's not my job to say how to use it" or the common sheepwalker's famous last words: "I'm quite sure, that out leaders know, what they are doing".


    So ofcourse "opinions" stink. But for good or bad, we all (with the possible exception of adepts) hang onto something.

    In case anybody has missed it, I'm doing my lone ranger stunt, because I want to get as far from belief-systems as possible. But I also have some basic premises. I am neither meek nor turn the other cheek, but as long as I'm left in peace (which is an option here, where I live) I try to follow "live and let live".

    We don't know exactly, what the heck really is going on in this universe, but we fight merrily about it anyway.

    So I start from making some social agreements: "Don't lie to me, don't cheat me, don't steal from me and don't invade my small private space". Like democracy it's maybe not the final answer, but for the duration, it's functional. Making social contracts as this have lately got a bad name. But I prefer it to the aggressively missionary method, because everyone can see the reason in it. Though they often disregard it, on their way to a bigger piece of the creamcake.

    I have realised this point of wiev by living in, what is popularly called "voluntary simplicity". That is, considered from a western outlook. I'm often considered stark raving mad (or by friends: Rather eccentric). But 80% or more of the people living on this planet would think, I live as a prince. Both parts agreeing on, that I'm mentally deranged, because I don't want "more".

    Ofcourse I am expressing "opinions" by joining this forum. But I would like to believe, that the damage done is relatively small. I'm not starting any major or minor wars or encouraging individuals to become asocial.

    And I get a lot of personal satisfaction from exchanging opinions with guys like you and Peoples, even when we disagree. It's a learning process. A statement which is NOT to be confused with new-age marmalade philosophy.


  3. #33
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    quote:No, I definitely believe, there is some creative force "behind" the bang. But I'm ofcourse uncertain of, what it is. So I avoid using a word, which already has some copyrights attached to it. Words have a tendency to create things, if they are used carelessly.
    True that the word God has a copyright issue, with each religious sect claiming that their God is the one true God etc etc blah blah blah.

    According to the King James Bible, when God spoke to Moses, he told him, "I am what I am." Popeye the sailorman used to use the same line! What I see as part of the path to a high level is to have the inner ability to ask questions, except the opinions and thoughts of others as POSSIBLE, and although it is our nature to choose the answers that best fit our own idealogy, always retain the understanding that what you don't agree with may be right. Of course, I mean this in a philosophic way, as should someone say that in his opinion the road to long life is to put a loaded shotgun in your mouth and pull the trigger, this person is either kidding or deranged.
    quote:I don't want to believe. I want to KNOW, to experience "reality".
    "Being there" stuff. Such is possible, but very difficult to acchieve.
    Here, we differ greatly in our person philosophical beliefs. I don't want to know everything. I believe we aren't meant to. I feel it's our destiny to accept this and to contemplate the possibilities of the unknown. I feel this "not knowing" is what motivates some of us to become better, as individuals and thus aa a society as a whole, as we search for the answers, although it was this quest that has led us to the ability to destroy ourselves in one nanosecond. When we know everything, what purpose will our lives hold? Again, I will take the low road and refer to "Star Trek". In the "Next Generation" series, they introduced a character called "Q". "Q" was one of many, all named "Q", who had obtained omnipotence... all knowing, all seeing, all powerful... etc. They were bored to death!!! I see this as what could happen to a person were he or she to know everything. What challenges would be left, and without challenges, what purpose is there to life? But, I could be wrong and there may be something to knowing everything.
    quote:The Popes have been amassing wealth for the last 2000 years; the oldest known european government (french) is only less than half that age.
    Yes, but the general fund is in the red these days. Sure, the Catholic church in particular has quite a nice chunk of change stashed away, but they are no longer making a profit. I work as a commercial HVAC service tech. The company I work for has several service contracts with local Catholic churches/ schools, including the Diocese of Trenton, NJ, USA. The folks that work in these places aren't so hush-hush about things. There is often a lack of funds. School enrolments are down (tuition), church attendance is down (pass the collection plate), and paying off all the lawsuits from the respected padres having their trists with alter boys in the confessionals is taking it's toll. Throw in the numerous TV evangelists, and even the mighty Catholic church has it's monetary woes.
    quote:Ofcourse I am expressing "opinions" by joining this forum. But I would like to believe, that the damage done is relatively small. I'm not starting any major or minor wars or encouraging individuals to become asocial.
    I like to believe the contrary. Expression of one's opinions and listening to the opinions of others is all a part of gaining and share knowledge. We do this here in this little piece of cyberspace. The real "damage" would be for you NOT to share your thoughts with others.


    Train returns

  4. #34
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    I'll agree to the possibilty of boredom.

    But for me the balance between informative communication and being a missionary, sometimes worries me. Examples:

    As Emanuel in James Branch Cabell's wonderful books, I say: "The world wants to be deceived".

    Nietzche, expanding on power, was quite afraid of his mother in law. Freud, with his psychological theories of sexuality, had a lousy marital life. Roussau (or was it Thoureau), wrote books about how to bring up children, but had to employ professional nurses etc., because he couldn't manage his own kids. Chairman Mao's wife, active in the socalled "cultural revolution", had an impressive collection of "decadent" western movies. Einstein, being a confirmed pacifist, helped building the nuclear bomb. Hitler, the ideal ubermensch, was said to be a sexual masochist. Albert Schweitzer, the great humanitarian, was accused of being a religious bigot. Etc.

    Personally I'm afraid of big spiders and heights.

    None of us is perfect. But we should have the decency to admit it, instead of starting various types of crusades to hide it.

    We not only live in illusions, we encourage them.

    But ofcourse if you live in a repressive society, where you have the choice between being grilled or risking falling of the edge of a flat world, it's better to keep your trap shut. Until the mind police is a reality, we can always THINK, what we want.

  5. #35
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    quote:Roussau (or was it Thoureau), wrote books about how to bring up children, but had to employ professional nurses etc.,
    Rousseau abandoned his children to orphanages.

  6. #36
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    Cit PeopleS:

    "what purpose will our lives hold?" & "What challenges would be left, and without challenges, what purpose is there to life?"

    The reason I'm not a buddhist is exactly for the same reasons you are mentioning. Buddhists often state, that the other side of the bang is "the great emptiness". Having had a couple of moderate (non-chemically induced) mini-nirvanas, my experience is, that it's rather like a silence. As like listening to the wind in the trees, after that damned fool with his ghetto-blaster finally has gone home to his daily moronic activities. It's not "dead"

    There are still things to learn and decide about out in the transcendence. Otherwise how could buddhas decide on extra+ compassion, giving up buddhahood and going back in "normal" life as boddhisatvas to help the rest of us. That's a decision if any.


    What happens after that level of existence (nirvana), it's a bit to premature for me to form opinions about. All of you guys, ...if you hang around on "psychobabbling", I'll let you know, when/if I find out. For the uninitiated: That was a joke! (this is here, where I'm supposed to say LOL, isn't it???)

  7. #37
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    "Rousseau abandoned his children to orphanages".

    Even worse than nurses.

  8. #38
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    quote:The reason I'm not a buddhist is exactly for the same reasons you are mentioning. Buddhists often state, that the other side of the bang is "the great emptiness". Having had a couple of moderate (non-chemically induced) mini-nirvanas, my experience is, that it's rather like a silence. As like listening to the wind in the trees, after that damned fool with his ghetto-blaster finally has gone home to his daily moronic activities. It's not "dead"
    But doesn't Buddism involve a search for inner peace, as opposed to total knowledge? Thus the isolationism associated with Buddist monks (or any type of monestary atmosphere? Certainly, "inner" peace is much easier to obtain in an isolated sub-culture of like-minds who all seek the same thing. The trick is to maintain this peace in the midsts of everyday life away from the mountain.

    I think I've told you guys before that I'm a Native American. In my general subculture, a certain degree of peace and harmony with nature etc, is something that is part of our "programming", that is passed down from parent to child. Maybe this will shed some light on some of my philosophical beliefs? The thing is, that within our culture we also have what is generically refered to as a "vision quest". Granted, in the old days such a quest was helped along by certain herbs of a somewhat mind altering nature, but the goal was pure.

    A little history lesson for you guys... Here, "in the land of the free and the home of the brave", the freest and "greatest" nation in the world, the people who were native to this land did not receive the right to vote until 1925, and there are still some religious practices that are outlawed by the federal government, because they involve the use of paote or hallucinogenic mushrooms. Not that I am advocating drug use, but this was a religious practice observed for hundreds of years before Europeans found out the world wasn't as flat as they thought.

    Anyway, the point behind a vision quest, with or as is now very popular without mind altering substances, is to seek peace and harmony with one's self, try to understand one's purpose in life and a bunch of other existential mumbo-jumbo, and retain this when returning to the real world. Sounds in part, similar to what you are trying to accomplish swede?

    I've had my small vision quests from time to time. Although I find temporary peace, nothing life changing has ever come from them, but I hope that one day something will just "click"!!!

    And if you were wondering, in Native American culture there is a belief in a higher power... The Great Spirit, God, Allah, Intelligentent Design, or even Popeye if you please...

    I have to take a second to thank you guys for giving me this opportunity to explore some of these more philosophical topics with you. It's truly a breathe of fresh air!!!

    Train returns

  9. #39
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    All citations PeopleS:

    "But doesn't Buddism involve a search for inner peace, as opposed to total knowledge? Thus the isolationism associated with Buddist monks (or any type of monestary atmosphere? Certainly, "inner" peace is much easier to obtain in an isolated sub-culture of like-minds who all seek the same thing. The trick is to maintain this peace in the midsts of everyday life away from the mountain"

    "Knowledge" in this connection is more meant as "wisdom", rather than intellectual knowledge. And inner peace is the tool, you use to find wisdom, not an end in itself. Being "wise" amongst people is for the advanced; so being a beginner, I seek solitude. Out amongst the polar bears, plastered mooses (they like to eat fermented apples), ticks and other endearing aspects of mother nature (again I crave artistic license).


    "I think I've told you guys before that I'm a Native American. In my general subculture, a certain degree of peace and harmony with nature etc, is something that is part of our "programming", that is passed down from parent to child. Maybe this will shed some light on some of my philosophical beliefs? The thing is, that within our culture we also have what is generically refered to as a "vision quest". Granted, in the old days such a quest was helped along by certain herbs of a somewhat mind altering nature, but the goal was pure."

    I didn't know know your ethnic background, but if possible, it makes you even more sympathetic (don't worry, I'm not idealising). Having spent a few years with cultural anthropology, I'm familiar with the sad history of your people, and thinking of it has always made me ashamed to belong to the pink race, as I do being caucasian. I also better understand your pro-creation attitude (as opposed to my scepticism of the quality of the universe). For a few years I joined a group of revival shamans here in Scandinavia, and before that I tried peyote a few times (that was before authorities made it illegal, because they discovered that such substances can turn you into an individualist). My expanded vision quest isn't over yet, but still only being 63 years young, I hope, I will make it. I'm really curious to find out, what all this is about. Life and everything.


    "Sounds in part, similar to what you are trying to accomplish swede?"

    As far as the pragmatic methods used, it's very similar, and in any case both you and I could be completely wrong about believing we end up at the eternal huntinggrounds or nirvana. We COULD end up with a lot of unisex types playing harps and worshipping the old man. Now THAT'S, what I would call boredom.


    "I have to take a second to thank you guys for giving me this opportunity to explore some of these more philosophical topics with you. It's truly a breathe of fresh air!!!"

    Sir PeopleS, on your white Harley and your shining black leather armour. I return the compliment with all my heart.


    And now to something completely different.

    PeopleS and Ham,

    I hope, you have noticed, that our small corner here is getting slightly fashionable according to the size of our passive audience. Soon we can even compete in popularity with such fascinating topics as: "Natasha, the nymphomaniac, nude, nubile namby-pamby".

    Starting this topic, I wasn't aware of the hidden need, the world has for psychobabbling. Well, even one of these days one of the closet-philosophers will come out here to join us.

    Two-syllable words accepted, but please, no cursing or spitting on the floor.



  10. #40
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    quote:"Knowledge" in this connection is more meant as "wisdom", rather than intellectual knowledge.
    Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! A word that has eluded us all until now... WISDOM! Yes, yes!!! Oh Popeye, YES!!! Within wisdom lies the answers to all. The ability to reason, the ability to dael with life , the ability to understand. Wisdom comes in many forms. Each of us has shown wisdom in the realization that we can each, and society as a whole, be better. We show our wisdom by seeking the wisdom of others to add to that which we already possess and sharing what we have so that others may benefit as we have.

    As for my ethnic background, my friend, you didn't do anything so keep on living and expanding yourself. I'm from the east coast of the states. The folks out west are the ones that still have it bad. Think about it, as the US moved west, they were still fighting while my forefathers were already being assimilated. They're a hundred years behind where I am in some ways. My great-great grandfather was a farmer. A guy like me out west might say his great-great grandfather was killed by the US Cavalry.

    It's a bit of a social time warp within our culture! To speak of which, I've talked to people from the west and it might be said that if a guy has the means, camping out in Arizona, Wyoming or some other western US state could bring about the same result as what we all have searched for in the FSU. Although, some of the women are pretty harsh on the eye, some are quite beautiful.

    I know what you're thinking, but we're talking third world poverty. Some of these people don't even have electricity! These people don't have computers to go on dating sites and finding a girl means just what I said, going there and staying for quite a while and getting to know her the old fashioned way. Generally, outsiders aren't received well, even other Natives.

    I'd have to say our little corner of cyberspace has proven itself to be a place where like-minds in principle can come to exchange ideas, ideals, opinions or thoughts in general with the knowledge that everything we say may not be agreed with, but also won't be subjected to the narrow thinking of "sleepwalkers". It's quite refreshing for me to be able to discuss the things we have.

    Personally, I would welocome others as long as they mnid their manners and understand this is a slightly more civil discussion and exchange. Wow, what a concept civility!!!

    Train returns

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