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Thread: psychobabbling

  1. #471
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    Hey guys! swede, I also hope you find your energy. You two have certainly covered quite a bit since my last post. I know that Prometheus is relatively new to the prior discussions held concerning God, the universe and that which lies beyond. It's such a touchy subject to many, but has been so cordially debated here that I wish everyone could read these pages.
    quote:My potential 'absolutes' are beyond the universe and its creator; you seek your answers and/or experiences inside or with the universe and its creator. I seek it outside. But the methods for finding and experiencing them (the absolutes) are similar to yours and what you have described concerning orthodoxy.
    This is a point where swede and I have differed in opinion from the beginning. As I find my personal comfort beyond the confines of organized religions, I also seek answers beyond what science can provide.

    My ultimate question to EVERYTHING is very simple, but has no truly satisfactory answer except to believe in a God of some form. For the scientists, I ask what caused "The Big Bang"? Where did matter, anti-matter, dark-matter, all the elements, etc come from???

    The next question, and the really BIG mystery is to assume the existense of a God, but where the heck did he, she or it come from in the first place??????? What is the real beginning of EVERYTHING??? To me, this is the greatest dilema I face concerning faith/ science.

    Prometheus, you having a form of religious beliefs, should also remember that God can be a vengful son of a gun. Turn the other cheek, but push come to shove, smiting does work quite nicely.



    Train returns

  2. #472
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    Cit PeopleS:

    "The next question, and the really BIG mystery is to assume the existense of a God, but where the heck did he, she or it come from in the first place??????? What is the real beginning of EVERYTHING??? To me, this is the greatest dilema I face concerning faith/ science."

    Both science AND at least some religions say, that beyond big bang causality ('cause and effect') as we know and experience it, doesn't exist as it does inside the universe. Space, time, matter, energy were created by the banging. Everything we know, and the way we come to know it it, isn't valid outside the universal existence.
    To talk about 'beginnings' are just so many words. It has no meaning out there.

    So to talk about who or what was before the universe and its creator is more a question of human perception, psychology and epistomology, than a usual question of logic.

    To find answers, we (as humans) have to change our 'perception' at a deep level to adapt to a new way of experiencing existence.

    A small allegory. Some hundred years ago two of your forefathers were taken to London, so to speak directly from the bush, and were exposed to the socalled blessings of technological society. They died from culture shock.

    To change from normal mundane life into the experience, 'understanding' and/or perception of transcendence requires some preliminary training to accept and even survive this 'cultural' shock the mundane person has, when s/he tries to approach the 'divine dimension'.

    Ofcourse I can't speak for Prometheus, but my own opinion is, that he and I share this starting attitude, and the methods to adapt. What we expect to meet in the end differs, but for me that's an open question for me.

    Cit:

    "Prometheus, you having a form of religious beliefs, should also remember that God can be a vengful son of a gun. Turn the other cheek, but push come to shove, smiting does work quite nicely."

    This is why I (Swede) am a kind of gnostic and not a christian. A 'good' creator, making a universe filled with 'beeb'. I don't buy that one. I believe in a creator, but I consider him/her/it insane.






  3. #473
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    quote:Originally posted by swede

    "Prometheus, you having a form of religious beliefs, should also remember that God can be a vengful son of a gun. Turn the other cheek, but push come to shove, smiting does work quite nicely."

    This is why I (Swede) am a kind of gnostic and not a christian. A 'good' creator, making a universe filled with 'beeb'. I don't buy that one. I believe in a creator, but I consider him/her/it insane.
    I think you've already answered this question Swede:

    quote:Originally posted by swede
    Gurdjieff said something like your priest about challenges being a blessing. He called it 'friction' and said it was one of the best ways to acchieve higher awareness.
    Agent Smith explained this need for friction so eloquently in the Matrix:
    quote:From "The Matrix" (1999)


    Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization.
    It's not that God is insane, it's that he is divine and we are not. Our mortal brains cannot grasp the infinite, the timeless, the eternal. It's not a slap against us, we just aren't wired that way. I understand the need to define God, but I also recognize the ultimate futility of the exercise.



  4. #474
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    Forget about tantric sex for the moment, I switch to my role as your friendly neighbourhood conspiracy theorist.


    And from this perspective, I can only agree with Prometheus' former speculations about the expected lifetime of Obama.
    The central question now is, whether he'll be able to clean up in the mess of the state inside the state, the 'Grey cabinet' behind Bush and other political leaders.


    In the true tradition of conspiracy theorists, paranoia plays a role in my worldview, and as I have formerly suggested, Sweden has been used as an experiment in social engineering, a kind of political 'rat in the labyrinth' thing. Our present government has this late summer, Bush-supported, made a palace revolution, bypassing our constitution by establishing the most aggressive surveillance systen in the western world.


    So it's not surprising, that our local state-dominated radio has already started on a tentative and very subtle anti-Obama campaign. If you listen with a suitable amount of paranoia, there is an element of desperation in the political analysis being presented here.


    Obama is NOT to succeed according to the hawks everywhere.


    We'll see a lot more of that in the near future. Not only in Sweden.

  5. #475
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    Hey guys! As I try to look at the concept of where everything began, I find myself limited by my perceptions of what time, space, dimension, begin and end are, by the definitions that have been given to all of us by someone else.

    We have always been told that there is a beginning and an end to everything, despite the term infinity. I think that trying to really comprehend the totality of infinity is my greatest stumbling block, but at the same time, this also makes the case for some form of divinity.

    As science tells us that everything came from the "Big Bang", I still find myself questioning what cause this bang? If there was NOTHING, what made the bang, and where did all the elements, both known and those yet unknown, come from?

    To me, by the standard set by science of cause and affect, something had to 'cause' the bang...??? The expression, "Sh!t happens", isn't something I've ever read in any scientific literature.

    An interesting theory that I read is that ours is not the first universe, nor will it be the last. The theory is that the universe's energy is finite and that the expansion is limited in much the same way a star's life is limited. The universe came from the "Big Bang", continues to expand until it's energy is expended and then will begin to collapse back in on itself until everythingreaches the brink of non-existense and it goes BANG again and the whole process starts over.

    This theory lends itself to your beliefs, swede. If you combine this with infinitum, then what we perceive as creation becomes nothing more than a continuos cycle without beginning or end.

    I realize that infinity is the real question and the difficulty of my mind, and probably many others, to comprehend what it really is. This, allows for the existense of a God, and it also allows for pure science. Hey, Steven Hawking, put that in your pipe and toke it!!!

    Train returns

  6. #476
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    My congratulations to all those who so blindly looked for "change" that they have elected a man as the next President of the US who's political views are more closely aligned to those of Karl Marx than those of even Vladimir Putin!

    As I brace myself for the biggest tax increase since Willy Clinton p!ssed on all of us and told us it was raining with the biggest tax hike in US history, I wonder how many Americans will find their jobs being shipped overseas where the tax burden is so much cheaper? I'm sure my take home pay is going to be raped!!! I'm ready to move to Ukraine!!! At least those people can recognize a socialist when he steps up on the stump.

    If Barrack wants to "share the wealth", maybe he should start by coughing up some of the 4+ million he raked in last year to the people who bought into his lip service???

    As Democrats beat the drum about the rich Republicans over and over, being out of touch, I ask that just one member of the Democratic party in Congress show me that he or she is worth less than $1 million cash! I say it can't be done!!! But, they represent the 'common' man???

    So, as I prepare to watch my take home pay shrink over the next two years, I take solice in knowing that after Obama sends this country into a tax and spend a trillion nightmare that people will wake up and bring in a Republican Congress like they did after two years of Willy C.

    People seem to forget that he had a Democratic Congress, just as Obama does now, and didn't pass health care or anything else that was important either. I wonder if Obama will pull the same crap and pawn health care off on his wife like Willy did?

    Hopefully, he won't start closing all of our military bases again! Look, in the sky... it's a bird... it's a plane... yup, it's a plane and it's heading for... Too bad the democrats closed the nearest A.F.B.

    Train returns

  7. #477
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    Cit PeopleS:

    "An interesting theory that I read is that ours is not the first universe, nor will it be the last. The theory is that the universe's energy is finite and that the expansion is limited in much the same way a star's life is limited."

    As far I as remember, it was Hawkins, who proposed a rather specialised variety of this. He later took it back.

    In general I can understand your uncertainty about causality. As human beings everything in us, from the most down-to-earth to the most (until recently, when Quantum physics really had its breakthrough) abstract, rests on causality. Part of the theological strive, even mystical union with 'god' or nirvana, contain a big element of changing our perception-points. Our fundamental way of percieving life needs a change to grasp the beyond big bang non-causality.

    Cit:

    "I'm ready to move to Ukraine!!! At least those people can recognize a socialist when he steps up on the stump."

    My UA 'fianc?e' is a lecturer in micro-economy at a university, so she ought to know, what she was talking about. She told me about UA economics.

    The UA tax system is as prohibitive as the swedish (and that says quite a lot), and the possibilities for private enterprising even more bureaucratically and taxation hindered than here. It's so bad in UA, that even in areas of business, where they have all the local resources for selfsupply and production, almost no enterprising exists. Apart from producing rather sickly looking vegetables, vodka, beer and sweet champagne a considerable amount of UA business is based on import, where most of the prices in the end, in real money (not considered from available income) are up to twice the price in a western country for the same product.

    So if you're looking for a liberal, economic paradise, where the small, private enterpriser can make a life, don't look at UA.

    When it comes to using the taxpayers money, investing in military projects is definitely more costly and non-productive than any support of dental, medical or social care, ever suggested anywhere.

    The choice between these alternatives two is in the end ofcourse something a nation through elections must decide on.


  8. #478
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    Honestly, Obama is a centrist. In Europe he'd be considered a conservative.

    I guess it is a question of guns or butter PeopleS.

    The Pentagon's 2009 budget is $515.4 billion. Annual military spending, when adjusted for inflation, has reached its highest level since World War II. Overall since coming to office, the Bush administration has increased baseline military spending by 30 percent.

    Maybe you are from a military family and this sounds like a good use of scarce resources. I for one think the rest of the world, including Iraq, needs to pay for their own defense, not the American taxpayer.

    We have $700 trillion in unfunded mandates on the books right now, when you include Social Security and Medicare. That is $480,000 for each household in America. I can't afford that bill, can you?

    We have a crumbling infrastructure, inequitable access to healthcare, and we are growing a generation of students who can't read and can't afford college. 70% of America's economy is based on consumption of domestic goods and services. We have a fraction of the industrial output of a generation ago.

    So Obama's got his work cut out for him. Hawks like Bush got us in this mess PeopleS, so I respectfully agree to disagree. Bush gave you a $600 "stimulus" check this year (I did not qualify, because a six figure income makes me "rich" ha!), can your loyalty be bought so cheaply?

  9. #479
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    Risking the otherwise peaceful exchange on this thread, I must agree with Prometheus, though I would like to base my arguments more on personal humanitarian grounds. Strange as it may sound, I am a kind of 'hawk' on the local political scale; I even had a short politically active period in my life, representing a party which was accused of racism etc., and my attitude is definitely not coming from sympathy of communism or fundamentalist islam.


    But I do not vote with my wallet.


    PeopleS, you have formerly brought up the american help to Europe in the second world war as an argument for american politics, responsibility and general morals. And as I remember it, you then manifested a strong patriotic defense for US, where you got emotional about my mentioning the sinking popularity US has in both Europe and Asia, even amongst our conservatives. Like it or not, that's the truth.


    But I'm sad to say, US now looks the new bully in the global political sandbox, and the then fundamental politics of the third reich, 'lebensraum', is resembling the present selfrighteous world-policing Bush has demonstrated. There's a kind of almost desparate or arrogant messianic aspect in it.


    We're no even talking about the idea of 'attack is the best defense'; from my end of looking at it, it's more like a megalomaniac crusade for ......what? The american dream? Hollowed-out democratic principles defended by fascistic methods? Ot just the private war of some bible-belters and moneymongers?


    Considering my usual moderate language, my indignation can be seen, when I say, that the CIA, NSA or whatever messing with internal swedish politics REALLY pissed me off. The bad smell from this lingers in my nostrils, and makes the 'Jason Bourne' movies almost like documentaries instead of fiction.

  10. #480
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    I'm not ganging up on PeopleS swede, I just don't understand his hatred of "Slick Willie." The Clinton years were the longest sustained period of economic growth in American history. Right wingers get so self-righteous about him having a blow job in the Oval Office, but when you ask about GOP senators having a "wide stance" in public restrooms, or GOP reps sending nude photos to House pages, they act like its unfair comment on the "family values" party of "REAL America" (don't even get me started on that one).

    The problem is the GOP stole the 2000 election, and lied their way to annother victory in 2004. "Swift boating" became a part of the lexicon of dirty politics. So the Rovites of the world decided the American public really is as STUPID as they've treated us, and they launched a former beauty queen from Alaska (it's like a whole 'nuther country, right next to Russia, have you heard?) and ask us to put her a heartbeat away from the Presidency.

    The demographic tide in America is turning, but we haven't heard the last of the money grubbers. They come out in droves every four years with some new brand of snake oil to sell to an unsuspecting public.

    We need to change the way that government and history are taught in our schools. Insist that our children think for themselves, form their own opinions concerning what consitutes a "great country," and whether or not "manifest destiny" is a foolish pipe dream. I'd like to see everyone be required to spend a year abroad on a service project in a so-called third world country, just so Americans will realize they aren't so special, and we have many things in common with people in Zimbabwe, but now I sound foolish. Time for some KFC and a quick trip to Wal-Mart.

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