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Thread: psychobabbling

  1. #631
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    Cit PeopleS:

    "I see your examples as being only a miniscule scraping of the surface of what lies beneath."

    True. My examples were chosen from ordinary life. But there are also examples from the area of 'what lies beneath'. I for one have seen this demonstrated in my own life (and I'm far from alone in this), when I have worked with more 'metaphysical'/transcendent aspects of existence.

    The enormous quantum-jump people can experience, when they meet the first levels of socalled enlightenment, is something which has been testified through the ages from all cultures. But this doesn't come by itself (with a few exceptions), you have to do something to arrive at it.

    'Will' is a strange phenomenon. We can't define it 100%, because it's not a big part of our daily lives. Just as chaos can't be defined in itself, but only as 'that which is not cosmos', 'will' is 'that which is not deterministic'. Determinism is either defined by 'god's will' overriding and planning everything or as the scientism model, where everything is a big machine. In a sense 'will' is a bit like magic. It transcends god's will and/or the natural laws.

    Furthermore as you said, my 'euphoria' resulting from recreating special pleasant emotional states isn't an advanced level of consciousness. But what is called 'bliss' in certain schools of thought is. There's nothing on this planet to compare to the intensive feeling of joyful peace in bliss. This state of bliss can be obtained by most people, if they tried hard enough (I'm not saying they ought to, just that bliss is inside their reach).

    Cit PeopleS:

    "I see the level of our existence as being greater than what we have realized so far, but far less than we will be capable of once we have evolved to a higher level."

    I do not believe, that most of us are capable of experiencing ultimate truth by snapping our fingers, but we could use our existing possibilities FAR, FAR better, than we do now. How the situation would look from optimizing what (we believe) we have now, I can only have opinions about, but I'm sure, that it would be much more functional.

    Cit PeopleS:

    ""Willing" one's self to obtain a higher plain of existence and having "free will" to make choices are two different things."

    Didn't get that one. The only difference I see is in the area of where you're making the choices. To obtain a higher plane of existence isn't to say: "I command myself to a higher plane of existence". It's a process with a lot of complex movements, like learning anything else. Just more difficult.

    While I agree with you, that emotions define much of what we are, I personally like to define myself more from my intellectual function. This does not imply, that I'm trying to 'suppress' my emotions, only to make them housebroken so they know their proper place in the totality of a person.

    Yes, sociopaths are actually often manifesting 'more' free will than the average citizen, insofar that they break a lot of social and moral taboos. But free will used this way has its own limitations for growth. A sociopath will eventually reach to a level of inner total emotional dysfunction, and as we seem to agree, you can't be a 'whole' person without emotions.

    "Perhaps we can re-examine this topic?" (=FSU scammers finding it legitimate to scam westerners).

    Sure. I have changed my parameters somewhat since we last touched upon it.


  2. #632
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    Hey swede! Generally, 'will' and 'free will' aren't that difficult to define in basic terms. 'Will' being that which is to cause an effect through one's mental state or abilities. 'Free will' is merely the ability to make a choice. Maybe you or I can choose to go left, right, learn Russian or follow the teachings of Tibetan monks, but we can't choose to run or learn faster than our current limitations allow.

    I can not 'will' myself to be faster than a cheetah or more brilliant than Einstein. I can run and build my muscles, and study physics, but this will never change what I am.

    Again, the feeling of 'bliss', joy, etc is the result of a chemical release in your body. Being able to cause figure out a cause for it's release is certainly a good thing.

    To quote swede:

    """Willing" one's self to obtain a higher plain of existence and having "free will" to make choices are two different things."

    Didn't get that one. The only difference I see is in the area of where you're making the choices. To obtain a higher plane of existence isn't to say: "I command myself to a higher plane of existence". It's a process with a lot of complex movements, like learning anything else. Just more difficult."

    Exactly! A person CAN NOT 'will' him or herself to reach a higher plane of existence, and since this is what I am talking about through mankind's evolution, I think you might see what I mean. As I've been saying, I believe the areas of the brain that will permit us to obtain the highest levels can only be unlocked by evolution/ mutation. But, you seem to strongly believe that it be achieved through learning what some guru has to teach and then through our currently limited brains, be capable of reaching the same levels I see being evolutionary.

    I don't see it as sociopaths manifesting 'more', or less, free will, being the right of an individual to make decisions or choices, than the rest of us, it's that they tend to make the wrong decisions, or at least decisions that most of society deems undesirable.

    It's a way of life for some in the FSU to scam westerners, just like the many scammers world wide, using various scam scenarios. Socially, it isn't frowned upon as it is here. Economics being what they are in the FSU, a few have found a way to make a good living through MOB scams. It's simple survival to them. What makes FSU scammers so dubious is that they are often preying on an honest man's hopes to find a loving bride. A minority of the "Nigerian" scammers also play on emotions, but they actually will prey on bot men, women and even transsexuals like Danielle. The Nigerian scams, however, seem to focus more on greed. At least, the ones who have tried contacting me seem to be more 50/ 50. Since I'm not looking for love, dare I use that particular word, in a place other than the FSU, and I'm relatively certain that Mr. Nigel Biggles doesn't really represent the interests of Microsoft, the Nigerian scams usually go straight to my spam folder and then I dump them... unless I feel like playing with them.

    But, to focus more on the FSU, it seems that the intentions of the small time scammer is merely to make a living, as is socially acceptable in their region. But, I see a trend toward more and more organized scam groups than individuals and even more , of late, toward agency and website scams.

    Note that I define an agency as being the local office where girls, both honest and scammers, report in person, in their home cities. I define websites as just that, the actual website that WMs post their profiles on, look through the profiles of various ladies and spend western cash. With the mass propaganda spread by websites concerning their "anti-scam" policies, WMs are more and more being herded away from the independent scammers and toward the big websites who will "protect" the WMs from being scammed. Still, the thoughts behind the scams are pretty much the same from the individuals end... making a decent living. The websites are doing it out of greed.

    I don't know exactly what things are like, economically, in Ukraine right now, but I do know that despite US economic troubles, the USD is at 8.4 to 1 verses the UAH. It was 5.5 to 1 last year and 6.5 to 1 in November when I was in Lugansk. Now, is certainly a good time to scam some US dollars! They'll certainly go a long way right now!!! Website prices haven't followed the exchange rate trend in any way. I have noticed some "discounts" and sales, but for the most part, no significant adjustments. This is because, many websites are based in the US, as our friend scamfree also pointed out.But, this is just a case of US opportunism, seeing a "free market" to further exploit.

    It needs to be understood that a lot of local police are for sale. In many ways, the street cop is as much a scammer as the romance scammers. During my last visit to Lugansk, my friend Alex told me not to be alarmed that the taxi we called did not have a sign on top. The driver got out and placed it on the roof before we got in. Alex explained that some police will target taxis by stopping them and telling the driver he will receive several expensive tickets... or he can pay a small fee and the cop will let him go.

    I don't currently view the average small time scammer as being much more than a nuisance to most WMs. Although, as each newbie enters the fun world of FSU/ MOB, they still have their chances to score. But, many of the websites that allow one to one correspondence are the first ones that come up on real anti-scam sites and google searches.

    You'll have to excuse some of my possibly excessive babbling. It's day two for me being on a new anti-pychochotic. Not sure if it's working yet, but I haven't had any thoughts of tearing anyone's throat out with my bare hands the past two days![:0][)][8D]

  3. #633
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    Cit PeopleS:

    "Again, the feeling of 'bliss', joy, etc is the result of a chemical release in your body. Being able to cause figure out a cause for it's release is certainly a good thing."

    It looks as if you may have a severe attack of scientific reductionism. The implication of your thoughts on 'bliss' is, that you reduce all human reactions to bio-chemical causes. But as you said yourself: "Being able to figure out a cause for its release .....etc" means, that there is a cause, namely how to bring about bliss. That bio-chemical processes turn up later, AFTER THE CAUSE has been effectuated I will not deny. The important part is, that I can activate an otherwise dormant potential in me.

    But ofcourse the greater part of humanity has never taken the time and effort to learn how to reverse this process, i.e. making conscious choices the cause from which a bio-chemical reaction follows, instead of the opposite.

    That this can be done and demonstrated is certain. There exist persons, who willfully can control some of our (otherwise) automatic functions after some training, e.g. pulse and bloodpressure. Not by just lying down and let nature do its job the job, but by the mind going straight to these bodily functions and steer them.

    On my own part I have a small riddle-like situation for you. How can you bring your body, emotions and thoughts to the stillness, which is necessary for deep meditation? This is absolutely not a mechanic process, but must be done consciously. So you must DO something to make it happen. The interesting part is: From WHERE do you initiate this effort of stillness? Take an example: I want to stop my thoughts. Most beginners in meditation fight this one for years, because they usually start thinking about stop thinking. (Emotions and bodily functions can't stop thoughts either except by making you unconscious, which is not the aim). There is a paradox here, which only can be solved by supposing a level of awareness at a higher level than our 'normal' awareness. From this higher awareness you can direct the lower.

    I'm not suggesting you take up meditation, but I guess that meditation technique is by now so generally well known, that the example can be used.

    Own cit:

    "I (can't just) command myself to a higher plane of existence". It's a process with a lot of complex movements, like learning anything else. Just more difficult."

    By this I meant, that I can't will the outcome, but I can will the process leading to it.

    I do not 'believe' in any gurus or their methods. PeopleS, by now you ought to know, that I'm quite anti-authorian and anti-hierachial, and that I hate belief-systems. So there's very, very little 'belief' in my methods. But ofcourse I do get inspiration from other people.

    So everything I talk about in this connection is something I slowly and carefully has formulated my own ideas about and then later tested and experimented to results, answers, conclusions.

  4. #634
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    Hey swede! The new anti-psychotics are doing their job so far. They leave me a bit fuzzy in the morning, but it should get better as my body adjusts. To try to kill two birds with one stone, and part of a third, the feeling of bliss you feel when thinking of a fond memory isn't alien to me either, though I do not see myself willing myself to have such feelings. For me it IS more of a response to happy thoughts, particularly certain childhood memories.

    It is as I said a bio-chemical response brought about by stimuli, usually, but obviously not always of an external nature. It a sad statement, but this is what so many drug addicts are trying to accomplish through the use of the chemicals they put in their bodies. Many of these drugs work on the pituitary gland and the hypothalamus, which are the production centers of the endorphins. Have you ever wondered why acupuncture works? A skilled acupunturist can hit the nerves that will release the endorphins and draw them to the desired areas of the body. "Real" acupunture is science.

    Meditation and other forms of non-invasive or holistic healing has been around for centuries, yet it has never been a part of "mainstream" society. That doesn't mean it doesn't work. Yes, I have heard stories that when learned and applied properly, meditation can even cure internal illness. So, what you state isn't foriegn to me, and yes, it is a step in the right direction. But, my thoughts are that mankind will some day evolve to a point where this meditative state is more easily reached by all. Then, it will be on to the next level.

    YOU HAVE BELIEFS!!! It doen't have to be a part of a "system". Everyone believes in something, be it a God, science, martians or even themselves. A person can believe in hope. Belief doesn't necessitaed a divinity or an organization such as a particular church. You believe in the power of meditation and self awareness, or so it would seem from where I'm sitting.

    But, with all that mankind is capable of right now, I still see more in store in the future. Science also has looked at man's evolution, but more from the physiological and intellectual points and some have concluded that mankind IS still evolving. I only propose that our on going evolution includes a higher mental awareness and ability beyond that which is currently obtainable. Yes, there are a few who are on the right path, but I do not see them as having completed the journey.

  5. #635
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    Hi PeopleS,

    there's a clear distinction between the effect of my fond childhood memories and 'bliss', though this is MOSTLY (but not quite) a question of quantity or intensity.

    You know these big industial construction vehicles (caterpillars etc), where the engine is so big, that an ordinary electrical start-motor is insufficient. These machines have to use a normal car-sized combustion engine as a start-motor. First you start the car-engine in the normal way, than you use this to start the construction-machine engine.

    It's a bit like that, when I start my process towards 'higher' states of awareness. I use my ordinary-life possibilities to 'fire' myself to the next level. Though 'fire' is maybe the wrong word, as the idea is, that I want to acchieve a relaxed state. The body is normally very easy to relax, it answers soon to physical relaxation methods like a dog to training, so this is no problem.Emotions are somewhat more difficult, and this is where I can use my fond childhood memories, same as with the small car engine, to start the more 'heavy' or inaccessible emotional parts of me.

    When I'm swimming happily around in this sea of cosmic bliss, I can then turn my attention to my thoughts and still them also.

    Apart from my personal aim of acchieving a quantum-jump, new-dimensional awareness (which is qualitatively different from a standard awareness. It's not only a question of intensity), there exists, as you wrote, some beneficial side-effects from this process. And as it's not my intention to save you to my worldview-model, maybe I will just stick with the effects of awareness transmutation on ordinary life.

    Though not going so far as I once saw an advertisement (OFCOURSE from US): 'Meditate and make $$$$$$$$$', but I will take this ad as an example of the humanity's present plights.

    Formerly the middleclass person had a position or situation in life, s/he could feel safe with. Not safe as in being especially strong or insightfull or on top of the world, but safe in a sheepwalking way, where routines made a pleasant lull; living packaged in cottonwool. Usually big changes didn't occur in form of catastrophes etc. You know who you are, you have an identity as a person in a social context, you know your purpose the same way, and you are seldom exposed to threats of change (sheepwalkers hate change).

    It was all cute, safe, re-assuring and empty, and as I remember, that you also have expressed enthusiasm about Thorne Smith's books, you know, that his humour was mainly about making fun of this middleclass-world.

    We are not in a Thorne Smith'sk middleclass-world any more. I'm old enough to remember, and having tried, the time when big-scale production, like in factories, mainly was based on manual labour. The machines which existed were mostly quite primitive, and all the complex (but manual) jobs were left to people. With the advent of advanced techology the last 30-40 years, all this changed.

    Technology, of any kind, is now the center of western life. And while I can see big advantages from it, I also see the dangers. With modern technology everything is speeded up. Humans have to compete with the machines in the job-situation. Communication has developed to the point, where even grown-ups relate to others by teen-age like incessant babblings about nothing. (SMS or e-mails informing everybody, that you are now in the bathroom and later intend to drink coffee. Or efforts of humour on 'funny' greeting-card level). We are exposed to socalled 'information' in avalanche-like proportions (and the speed, direction and manipulation of this 'information' makes us feel small and insignificant) and we're recieving an endless stream of entertainment of moronic quality.

    Sad to say, a lot of this social insanity originates from US. As a nation you have now finally supplanted Jehova with the god Mammon, and Jehova has taken the role as secretary of state for 'cosmetic public morality'. I'm not accusing the american people of being especially evil-minded, they have just been the victims of the historical emerge of technology before most other nations.

    In world where this kind of insanity is becoming the norm, those trying to become sane will ofcourse be considered the real crazies. But never mind, I never consented to take the WHOLE package of technology, I take what I want and need and turn my back on the rest. And I don't care about the impression this makes on other people.

    I certainly have the steam up today, but my little sermon here doesn't mean, that I usually carry around a placard with: 'The end is at hand'.

    My reason for being so many-worded today is, that I'm trying to knot a few of the recent topics into a pattern. My own excursions into meditation- and weirdoland is an effort to find an anti-dote for the accelerating madness. And whatever anti-dotes I have found are based on experimentation and pragmatism, not on belief. This is one part of combining our rect topics together.

    The other part is, that scamming seems to be an ever growing part of western society. I'm not talking about scamming as only in FSUW scamming, but scamming as a part of relations between people, in businesslife and politically between nations. And as this tough grabbing philosophy, unburdened by ethics, is at the present most clearly manifested in the west. It's no wonder, that FSU, Africa, and to a lesser degree Asia, get the idea, that it's OK to scam. We're doing it to each other here, or at best only accepting a social model, where this is the norm. Why shouldn't the non-westeners do it also.

    The rest of the western socalled civilisation is being forced upon them, often against their will, so it would be unreasonable to hope, that they as victims should show a higher morality than the west does.

    What I say now is, that we are experiencing a deep existential illness, it's contagious and answers lie in what directions we as individuals take in life (maybe my answer, changing awareness level, isn't the correct or only one, but at least it's a try).





  6. #636
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    Hey swede! The knee surgery went well and I'm on the road to a speedy recovery!

    As for the subject of evolution v 'willing' one's self to a higher state of existence, we are miles apart in what we each believe. I do not see your approach as viable when less than 1% of the world population can make claims even approaching anything close to what I am talking about. That in and of itself is a whole different bag of beans, so to speak, since as I see it, mankind is incapable of reaching the levels I propose within the limitaions of our present condition. I also see it as a difference in how we each define certain things. By my definition of higher levels of existence, it is just that, higher than what we are capable of. No ifs ands or buts...

    All the Tibetan monks in the world could not reach what I am referring to without evolving to a condition to which the levels I speak of are possible. Saying a person can 'will' him/ herself to be more than the person is capable is like saying we will start a space colony on Mars next week. We are simply not capable, although we can invision a future where we might be capable.

    Your personal experiences are your own and I really can't say much about them.

    I will say that you are dead wrong in some ways about sheepwalkers hating change. Just look at US politics. If you want to get elected, all a person has to do is say he or she is the candidate that represents 'change'. People in this country are so blind that they forget the change they are voting for today is the same crap they voted against in the last election. Sheepwalkers always want change because change represents the blind faith being peddled to them by the power brokers of the world. Change is a false hope for the sheepwalker to cling to as their lives are manipulated by those envoking the so called changes.

  7. #637
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    Cit PeopleS:

    "Saying a person can 'will' him/ herself to be more than the person is capable is like saying we will start a space colony on Mars next week. We are simply not capable, although we can invision a future where we might be capable."

    I'm aware of our different opinions, but the question is, if there exist some basic assumptions, we can share. E.g. I don't mean, that a possible change can be done in a split second, but a decision (a choice) can be made to start a process in a certain direction with lesser or greater involvement or enthusiasm. It's the actual 'speed' of this process, I think we disagree about.

    (A short apropos concerning Mars colonies. Some conspiracy buffs postulate, that we already have such).

    What we ARE 'capable' is the key-point. Do you mean 'capable of' as in having a passive potential for (like 90% unused brain-capacity), or as in being able to find motivation for?

    What methods of evaluating such a question as human potential would you find acceptable. Any authority, a 'home-grown' system or just plain 'faith'?
    Cit:

    "By my definition of higher levels of existence, it is just that, higher than what we are capable of. No ifs ands or buts..."

    Not trying to be demagogic, but I must have missed your definition about what 'higher' means. Our ability to kill other biological beings; our ethics; being 'closer' a to supposed supreme being; our capacity for hedonistic pleasure? Apart from the relative answer to this, the standard model of evolution also includes the possibility of degeneration, a point not completely irrelevant.

    You're quite right in your opinion, that sheepwalkers possibly vote for change. But if such a change actually took place, and implied any kind of effort on their part, they would start to grumble. Whereas a passive wallet-reinforcement probably would be recieved well as an expression of minor greed.

    PS My personal experiences are not completely isolated phenomena. I share them with quite a few people, who present similar evidence as mine.

  8. #638
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    Hey swede! I would say that the only point at which I see 'will' having any affect is that a person can make the decision to embark on a particular path. This doesn't mean that he will be able to complete such a journey since he simply doesn't have the ability to get to the place I am speaking of. Since mankind doesn't have what is necessary to reach the higher levels I presribe, all the will one can have is not enough. I do see mankind as having the ability to realize a greater potential to utilize that which is already present prior to any evolutionary changes however. To obtain this, mankind does have all that is needed, and in place, or turned on.

    As for conspiracy theorists, let the one's you wrote about argue their points with the one's who say the moon landings were done on a sound stage in Hollywood.[xx(]

    Capable is that which we can do. I don't know how to make it any plainer than to carefully repeat what I have already written...

    1) Mankind has all of the physical parts necessary to ascend to a higher level of existence, being that which is as close to an all knowing and all seeing being, without actually being a God.
    2) We don't fully utilize approxiately 90% of the full potential of the brain. There's a nightlight on, but that's about all the electrical activity there is.
    3) The ONLY way mankind will ever be able to utilize the full potential of the human brain is after nature slowly "unlocks" these mysterious areas via evolution/ mutation.
    4) The so-called enlightenment presently obtainable by eastern mystics, Buddhists, Tibetan monks, etc, is nothing more than the full use of maybe 11% of the brain to reach a level slightly higher than that which most will reach.
    5) No matter how much an individual may want to "turn on" the remaining 90% of the brain, it is simply NOT a matter of choice to do so. A person can choose to use all that he/ she has access to, but nothing more than nature allows.
    6) Higher = more than, greater than, above what is present, more than currently shown, superior to that being compared to it, of an increased level or degree, raised above...

    I don't believe that at any point have I made mention of killing anything or hedonistic pleasure. The apparent assumption being that since a preditory model is the base for the process that the end result would have to be a self-centered preditor. Not the case as I have explained several times before.

    As for sheepwalkers voting for change, in the US, that's all they do. People always piss and moan about the way things are. It's always better around the corner. What we will have tomorrow is always better than what we have today... So, in walks the next preditor promising change! The only thing that ever changes is which preditory political party will reap the benefits of the sheepwalkers' labors during the next 4 years.[V]

    The lack of effort has a lot to do with it as is usually the case with sheepwalkers. They don't want to be bothered with such tedious inconveniences like... thinking! They are told their lives suck. Then they are told which person will fix it for them. That way, no strain is even put on the 10% of the brain they could use if they wanted to be bothered with it. Which again goes to my point that even though we currently have the potential to utilize 10% or maybe 11% or even 12% of our brains, the average sheepwalker seems to use even less than the potential that is available.

  9. #639
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    PeopleS,

    I did absolutely not mean to imply, that you as a person in any way ever have advocated the more self-gratifying suggestions of evolutionary goals (e.g. hedonism or 'might is right'). I mentioned such options to demonstrate the necessity of defining what 'higher' (evolution) means precisely, as there do exist people, who adhere to these definitions, whether they do it passively just practising it or actively through a clearcut definition.

    The average gold-digger/scammer, who doesn't scam out of survival necessity, but only for enhanced status-seeking, will probably never formulate a 'philosophy' about it, but nonetheless practise hedonism, while some groups defending 'might is right' (power, strength etc) can be quite articulate. Example german nazism and associated groups.

    Cit PeopleS:

    " 6) Higher = more than, greater than, above what is present, more than currently shown, superior to that being compared to it, of an increased level or degree, raised above..."
    and:

    "1) Mankind has all of the physical parts necessary to ascend to a higher level of existence, that being that which is as close to being an all knowing and all seeing being, without actually being a God."

    I take it, that these two paragraphs together form your basis for optimal evolution. Now we have a common startingpoint, as I also propose this. That I would have called "as close to being an all knowing and all seeing being....." for 'experiencing ultimate reality', is a minor semantic detail, as long as we recognize the implications of this distinction.

    Before I go into the possibility of such an 'extra'-high developement/change/evolution, I will turn my attention to the more ordinary-life decisions or choices, we make all the time. To take your situation with your heroin ex-girlfriend. You probably expected from her, that she would make a change concerning her addiction, at least to a degree, where she would be socially functional. As I take it, she didn't want to do that, and then YOU made the decision to terminate your relationship.

    As Prometheus recently remarked, there are app. 6 billion belief-systems on the planet; one for each person. And as a general rule I suggest the following way of dealing with the unavoidable disagreements arising from this. In any relationship, be it individual, social/political, ideological or for 'truth-seeking' different belief-systems will meet. Human beings are so used to consider their favourite belief-system as a territory to defend, that possible similarities between belief-systems are considered of minor importance. The mainpoint is to defend your own belief-systen as an untouchable whole, even to the point of open conflict. We center more on the differences than we do on similarities. But the possibilty of turning our attention to similarities is close at hand, and not very difficult to use.

    Ofcourse there exist quite a lot of belief-systems, which are completely incompatible. And I would personally count your former relationship as such a situation. No-one can live together with a fullscale junkie (I have tried it on a few occasions myself, though not in a 'couple'-relationship. It was unbearable). But still most people will eventually make a CHOICE of walking out. Some will make a 'small' choice passively by waiting until the situation forces them to it, others will make a 'big' choice more actively.

    Keeping this in mind (looking for similarities instead of differences), I'll continue to the possibilites of a change to a higher level of existence, as defined above.

    Cit PeopleS:

    "........I do see mankind as having the ability to realize a greater potential to utilize that which is already present prior to any evolutionary changes however. To obtain this, mankind does have all that is needed, and in place, or turned on."

    I'm not quite sure I get the meaning of this, so a clarification would help me. I understood the first half of that paragraph, but not in context with the last part cited above. It could be a simple question of language problems.

    But I will continue along lines taken from other parts of your recent posts.

    Cit PeopleS:


    "5) No matter how much an individual may want to "turn on" the remaining 90% of the brain, it is simply NOT a matter of choice to do so. A person can choose to use all that he/ she has access to, but nothing more than nature allows."

    On what basis do you formulate this postulate? While the evidence for or against it isn't enormous, we still have enough factual knowledge pointing in the other direction (of this statement). We have psychological models giving plausible explanations for our limitations. 'Territorial' belief-system behaviour, which is defended by individual filters, used to reinforce the 'validity' of our chosen belief-system. That such filters can be changed at a deep level is clearly demonstrated practically. E.g. the addict using the AA procedure is doing it. Also the idea, that we screen ourselves of from important information/communication by creating personal intellectual white noise (letting thoughts play endless repeat performances, leaving no space for creative thinking) etc.

    At a practical level many effective and accesible methods exist, by which changes can be acchieved. Methods of a complete non-technological type (initiation rites, meditation/relaxation techniques, some religious practices, mind-expanding drugs) and others based on technology as audio systems for synchronizing the brain-hemispheres or light-sequences creating altered mindstates (never tried that one though). Or intellectual tools like neuro-linguistic re-programming.

    Now I'm ofocurse making a guess as to your objections, but I have the impression, that what you suggest is missing for benefitting from these options is a personal, psychological and motivational 'trigger' in the average person, and this is what makes you distinguish between eastern mystics etc and the norm person. Whether a mystic enlarges his capacity from 10 to 11 % is difficult to form an opinion about, but let's use that example. Seen from a 100% utility of our potential, 1 % extra doesn't look like much. But seen from a 10 % utility 1 extra percent is an addition of 10 % utility compared to the starting point. And it does make a world of difference with this additional tenth part to the original. They can give the opportunity of still further growth and so on. This is demonstrable.

    Anybody can, to some degree according to personal goals, use such methods of personal growth. And quite a few people DO this, some of them without any background of idealism or religious inclination, only for utility reasons. An example I'm personal familiar with is the audio-technique used for brain-hemisphere synchronization. This is an extremely simple and accesible method, giving an avalanche effect on our whole/totality of being. It ofcourse starts with the actual brain-hemispere synchronization, actualized through creating the socalled alpha-wave brain-pattern. Being in the alpha brain-wave state makes it possible for the left and right brain-hemisphere to make linear and pattern-based thinking work in tandem, instead of being at odds (which is the normal state for many people). From there different options exist. A person can use it for going into deep meditation, for simple relaxed enjoyment (anti-stress) or for activating bodily processes needed for optimal physical wellbeing (the system is used in many hospitals as a pre- or postoperational support for quicker recovery).

    Anybody owning audio-equipment and $50-100 for tapes/CDs can within a week or two greatly benefit from this existence-enhancing method with a minimum of personal effort. The method is extremely well-documented, but the question is ofcourse if a person CHOOSES to use it or not.

    But absolutely 'free will' (in whatever available quantity) is a subject which deserves its own analysis.

    PS While I find conspiracy theories fascinating, and with much evidence of 'something' going on, it's at the present impossible to see if if intenational banking, political ideologies, religious fanatics, CIA, ETs or entities from other dimensions are masquerading as each other or whatever is the answer. But it would be wrong to dismiss the evidence because of the inconclusive explanations.

    PSS Sorry I forgot to congratulate you on your successful operation.






  10. #640
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    623

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    Hey swede!

    To quote swede:

    "I did absolutely not mean to imply, that you as a person in any way ever have advocated the more self-gratifying suggestions of evolutionary goals (e.g. hedonism or 'might is right')."

    During the discussion of evolution not needing symbiosis, I stated that, evolution would bring mankind to a point of not merely knowing right from wrong, but to also have the mind set to CHOOSE right from wrong. In other words to also gain a higher moral stand. The hard part is tippy toeing around divinity when having a discussion with you, but to put it frankly, take all the good and kind aspects of biblical living and you have the basics of the moral picture.

    The moral issue is the key, because without a strong moral center, all of the other ideals fall apart and could potentially lead to the self-destruction that you seem to fear from our predatory nature. So, you could also define "higher" as divine, if you wish.

    To quote swede:

    "Cit PeopleS:

    " 6) Higher = more than, greater than, above what is present, more than currently shown, superior to that being compared to it, of an increased level or degree, raised above..."
    and:

    "1) Mankind has all of the physical parts necessary to ascend to a higher level of existence, that being that which is as close to being an all knowing and all seeing being, without actually being a God."

    I take it, that these two paragraphs together form your basis for optimal evolution. Now we have a common startingpoint, as I also propose this. That I would have called "as close to being an all knowing and all seeing being....." for 'experiencing ultimate reality', is a minor semantic detail, as long as we recognize the implications of this distinction."

    If you want to take two out of six statements to fit in the way you wish them to fit, be my guest, but anytime you take items out of context they will tend to lose the original meaning as set forth by the author. But, to pick one or two myself, I would say #3 and #5 cut to my point pretty quickly. This being the end game, as opposed to a starting point.

    It's funny that you mention my ex, having just received a letter from her today proclaiming that she has remained "clean" for the past 2 1/2 years, and that she owes her life to me. That's nice... so she's not a junkie any longer, but I wonder how that being a whore thing is working out for her? I was willing to work with her on the drug problem, but her spreading her legs outside my bedroom was the reason her ass is gone.

    To qoute swede:

    "Cit PeopleS:

    "........I do see mankind as having the ability to realize a greater potential to utilize that which is already present prior to any evolutionary changes however. To obtain this, mankind does have all that is needed, and in place, or turned on."

    I'm not quite sure I get the meaning of this, so a clarification would help me. I understood the first half of that paragraph, but not in context with the last part cited above. It could be a simple question of language problems."

    As it is said that we use only 10% of our brains, I say we can more fully use this. We have a potential of 10%, and as I said, some may possibly reach 11% or even 12%. One of the things that holds us back from making an evolutionary leap forward is that we often do not seem to live up to the 10%, an example of this being sheepwalkers. Those who have that edge of 11% or 12% potential often seem to fully utilize this seemingly small, but relatively sizable advantage. These are the ones we see as genius or the deep meditation types may also fit into this group, but not to say that they are remarkably advanced as would be the case through an evolutionary change. One of the things that I see as retarding our evolution is the fact that we generally don't quite live up to the 10% in the first place.

    As I allow for mutation within the species, as it can be said it is well documented, such can account for those who's mental abilities extends to the 11% and 12% levels. Mutation is a normal abnormality within nature. Mutation however usually only affects a very small percentage of a species and is usually not passed on genetically. In other words, the child of a genius will probably NOT be a genius.

    To quote swede:

    "Cit PeopleS:


    "5) No matter how much an individual may want to "turn on" the remaining 90% of the brain, it is simply NOT a matter of choice to do so. A person can choose to use all that he/ she has access to, but nothing more than nature allows."

    On what basis do you formulate this postulate?"

    On what do you base any contradiction? Ahhhhhhhh! Your beliefs!!! You believe that an individual can 'will' him or herself to a higher state, while I say he can only do that which evolution will allow. There is no scientific evidence of 'willing' happening. If it were possible, wouldn't everyone be doing it? I see it as you confusing an almost insignificant anomaly, reaching 11% or 12%, with opening a new level of existence. Basically, so what if an insignificantly small percentage of the population, less than 1% of 1%, can put themselves in a trance that they confuse with true enlightenment? By that reasoning, I am regularly enlightened after my twelth or twentieth beer. I reach a state of calm and peace and am fully aware of the world and my place in it. We have already covered the fact that people who still view women as inferior are not truly enlightened. The fact is that most of these monks and priests are sensory self-deprived, having little or no contact outside the walls of their own walls. They BELIEVE they have reached a certain level which nature says they can't.

    The full utilization of the human brain depends on a great number of factors. Like a muscle, it requires constant exercise. The 1% of 1% merely are exercising a part of the brain which most do not. Thus, the ability to learn, let's say Russian, at the age of 45. However, it can be reasoned that through the evolutionary process, the baseline will be raised to where it becomes more of a basic function and learning certain things would be easier.

    http://www.world-science.net/exclusi..._evolution.htm

    The knee is doing well. Surprisingly, the only pain is from the incisions.

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