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Thread: psychobabbling

  1. #81
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    quote: ham, I have to defend Churchill. He did everything but get on his knees and beg FDR to help push the Russians out of eastern Europe.
    Sure, late on he realized his mistake and tried to steer course, but in vain. My only point was that they said no way they'd compromise or give away Poland to Hitler (who had shared it with the USSR, but they seemed to forgot USSR invaded Poland at the same time ) because Hitler was a threat to the "Empire" (or whatever delusion they used to get drunk to ). At the end of the war Poland is gone, half Europe is gone, hell, half Germany is gone and the "empire" is going as well...
    So it is not far fetched to assume their main motive was the destruction of Germany, much as it was in 1914.
    In fact, can you cite one big reason for WWI?

  2. #82
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    quote:Sure, late on he realized his mistake and tried to steer course, but in vain.
    I'm surprised you don't know the history of Churchill's relationship with Stalin. Churchill never trusted Stalin. Stalin was an alliance of necessity. There was no "late on" realization, he didn't trust Stalin from the beginning. In fact, Churchill tried to convince FDR to allow Patton to push east, but Patton was already in the dog house at this point.

    You seem to site Churchill has the one responsible for the loss of eastern Europe, but it was FDR, the American president who allowed this to happen by not supporting Churchill. It has even been said that FDR and Stalin had a secret pact.

    WWI began as a result of the assasination of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria. Somehow, political ties escalated this one event into a world war. I'm unfamiliar with details.
    quote:The legislation-variety is best exemplified by Timothy Leary. It's not, that I'm one of his most enthusiastic supporters, I think he had some pretty stupid (but harmless) ideas occasionally, but on the other hand he also showed moments of genius.
    swede, Timothy Leary openly advocated the use of LSD. It simply wasn't the best move, considering the POLITICAL climate of the US at the time. He and his beliefs would have benefited from a bit more tactful thinking.

    It appears that your "outsiders" and my "dreamwalkers" are very similar in deed.

    Train returns

  3. #83
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    Cit PeopleS:

    "swede, Timothy Leary openly advocated the use of LSD. It simply wasn't the best move, considering the POLITICAL climate of the US at the time. He and his beliefs would have benefited from a bit more tactful thinking."

    I've even read the congress reports of his hearing with one of the Kennedys. It was a legalistic farce. At that time Leary behaved like the professional, which he in reality was, advocating care and control of LSD. NEVER saying anything about letting it run loose on the streets, he actually warned for the consequencies, if a black market should arise.

    The result was, that all research permissions were drawn back from all qualified psychiatrists, and only CIA continued with their infamous mind-control experiments, mentally crippling some people on the way. This is not a conspiracy theory, the thing was brought to court (I don't know the outcome).

    The tragic, and at the same time typical, thing is, that LSD originally was meant as psychofarmaka, and had showed VERY promising results in the research done by competent therapists. The authorities probably don't WANT people to get well. The junk they are dealing out now for mental illness is usually addictive and have sideeffects almost as bad as the illness itself. I have tried it for a period.

    But Leary's later behaviour is why I'm somewhat sceptical about him.
    He reacted far too clumsy in his public attitude, considering the exposed situation an outsider always is in. You have to lie low.

    I would make a guess, and say that the dreamwalker is something native american. It sounds a bit like that. There are many very interesting and sensible aspects of the culture of your forefathers.
    If you have some information to add, I would be grateful.


  4. #84
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    quote:I'm surprised you don't know the history of Churchill's relationship with Stalin. Churchill never trusted Stalin. Stalin was an alliance of necessity. There was no "late on" realization, he didn't trust Stalin from the beginning. In fact, Churchill tried to convince FDR to allow Patton to push east, but Patton was already in the dog house at this point.

    You seem to site Churchill has the one responsible for the loss of eastern Europe, but it was FDR, the American president who allowed this to happen by not supporting Churchill. It has even been said that FDR and Stalin had a secret pact.
    well, nobody there trusted anybody "really" I daresay.
    Much as I don't like American imperialism, it is unfair and untrue to blame it on the Americans.
    The English are to blame; if it wasn't for them, we'd have had peace earlier.
    Sure, America played Machiavellian tricks and waited for the contenders to be exhausted to get their share, but can we really blame them?
    Churchill was begging Stalin to attack Germany even before Germany was ready to attack, and this added to Hitler's paranoia.
    In Italy we have a clear example as in 1945 communist militants invaded eastern Italy; a plan was in place to allow transfer of troops from occupied south to help counterattack, and who vetoes the plan?
    An English general in command in the south.
    Result?
    Gratuitous massacres against civilians and -hear this- other non-communist militants.
    Foreseeing the sour end, Churchill hurried to visit Stalin to bargain for residual "influence" to be Britain's lot.
    Now you cite where this British "influence" ever materialized after the second war.
    The Falkland war is the only example, while France struggled a couple more decades to manage the dissolution of its empire.
    Britain behaved in a devious way.
    Italy needed coal & other supplies, but British blockades made trading a nightmare (Italy entered the war only in 1940 ); Mussolini pleaded for understanding and cooperation, which was offered on paper but never materialized.
    A poor country like Italy could have easily been "bought" with coal, supplies or a few minor colonial concessions in Africa, which were discussed but never materialized: why?
    Hitler on the other hand was ready to supply 12.000 tons of coal via railroad at any moment...see how things happen?
    So ok, Britain did that because they did not want to share an ounce of anything with anybody...and we saw the results...they ended up empty handed and half Europe was gone.

    quote:Somehow, political ties escalated this one event into a world war. I'm unfamiliar with details.
    you are not familiar with the details because there are no details: no invaded countries, no deportations, no ideologies at fight...nothing but an extended family of monarchs (the king of England was the blood uncle of the German kaiser ) quibbling over nonsense.

    Americans entered WWI mainly to recover huge amounts of money for military supplies that defeated partners would not have been able to pay back, and stung by the "all-out submarine war" declared by Germany (silly move).

  5. #85
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    quote:you are not familiar with the details because there are no details: no invaded countries, no deportations, no ideologies at fight...nothing but an extended family of monarchs (the king of England was the blood uncle of the German kaiser ) quibbling over nonsense.
    I thought royal inbreeding had some part in it, but really couldn't remember.
    quote:Much as I don't like American imperialism, it is unfair and untrue to blame it on the Americans.
    I think it's funny, you don't blame the Americans, and I being an American, do. Certainly England's, and thus Churchill's policies toward Italy, in hindsight, proved to be the wrong decission. But as for his alliance with Stalin, a quote from Churchill, "If Hitler were to invade Hell, I should find occasion to make a favourable reference to the Devil."

    The fact is that by the end of the war in Europe, without the full support of FDR and the US army, Churchill had no choice but to make "deals" with Stalin. As battered as the English forces were, had Stalin wished, he could have made Buckingham Palace his winter retreat at that point. So the devil got eastern Europe.
    quote:I've even read the congress reports of his hearing with one of the Kennedys. It was a legalistic farce. At that time Leary behaved like the professional, which he in reality was, advocating care and control of LSD.
    I didn't know a Kennedy was involved. In the 60's, the only thing that could have prevented their political dynasty was an assassin's bullet, which is what happened twice. Opposing a Kennedy meant certain defeat regardless of the evidence etc. Let's face it, had he not been murdered, JFK could have been elected "King" of the US! His days in the White House were, and still are, referred to as Camelot.

    I'm not 100% sure, but I believe cocaine and/ or heroin were once considered "medicine" as well. I know opium was often used, and still is... oxycodone is a strong opiod. I was actually prescribed oxy 80's after a botched surgery years ago. 80's are the strength given to dying cancer victims. There's a huge black market for them!

    "Dreamwalker" is a somewhat Native term, but in this reference, I use it to simply mean anyone who dreams of making things better, if not for all mankind, his or herself. Under this broad definition, the three of us can be considered "dreamwalkers" to some extent. Although we each don't appear to have global implications to our dreams, we seek to improve ourselves without adversely effecting others. By doing this, we still have a positive effect on the world, small and insignificant as it may be.



    Train returns

  6. #86
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    PeopleS, I earlier said, I would return to your post from the 17th.


    Cit PeopleS (17th):
    "Now, as we have dispensed with the USSR, and begin to learn about the people, we in the US see they are not so different."

    Can't say about US similarities with FSU, but must refer to Europe. And I'm still not convinced that there doesn't exist big differences (the cause of those differences being another thing). I will give an example: Secondhand shops. In Denmark, with its very high livingstandard, secondhands shops are "chic". The suburbian housewives will boast about their bargains and strange objects, they find there. There is absolutely no social stigmata connected with this. Quite the contrary. In Sweden and Poland, not so rich countries, flea-markets and secondhand shops are a steadily growing market. You'll find such shops everywhere. My local town is a ghost-town, where most specialists shops like a greengrocer or bicycle-repairmen are dying out or non-existing. But we have four permanent secondhand shops, doing a brisk business.

    In Ukraine, the secondhand shops are few and far between, and the average ukrainian refuses to put her/his foot inside such a place. Not because of bad quality of the goods, but because of status-downgrading, if you are caught doing it. I had a couple of real rows with my "fianc?e" about it, where she ended up crying, because of "what would people say about her, if they knew, that her boyfriend shopped secondhand".


    "As I said, and Lenin prescribed, there can be no individualism that exists without consent of the whole. Too many individuals took it upon themselves to do things for their own reasons, be they greed, glory. or some Freudian psychosis which was based in their hatred of their mother"


    There's good guy individualism (outsider'ness) and bad guy individualism as I proposed lately. Repeating the example of the native american medicine man, who is/was the quintessence of the good guy individualist/outsider. Individuals can do a lot. Einstein, Da Vinci.....


    "The world revolves around POWER. Right and wrong play second fiddle"

    When it comes to gun-point, this is true. But in the meantime a lot of lipservice is paid to bad and good. To be cynic: It has a certain PR value, though power ofcourse always will win, when it comes to it.


    "For ANY worldwide philosophy to exist, much more than a simple majority of the world's population would have to agrre, and that kind of world unity is not something we will see in our lifetimes without some form of divine intervention"

    The problem is, that I believe, that we define "divine" in different ways. For most western religions "divinity" is an outside force. In the east the tendency is to talk about a personal state of being, which is a potential for every individual. If I, as a person, reach total awareness (clarity, realisation, nirvana etc), I am LIKE a god, and it gives me possibilites unknown to the average guy (I'm not talking about going out in the world with my magical wand, waving away all problems, but rather to being able to find problem-solving methods).


    A momentary and short change from the general line of tracks, we've had here sofar. Occasionally I wonder, if our little babbleclub will come up with any functionel answers. And today I discovered, that just the fact of babbling with you guys has influenced me as a person in some significant ways. I pride myself in being honest, also with myself, so every time I make a post, I have to think about, what I'm going to write. While going on with the discussion about the various suggestions of the FSUW dating scenario (Ham mainly believing cyberspace is the problem, PeopleS that it's a general man/woman thing, and I have said, that FSUW are especially troublesome), I discovered to my surprise, that the principle I've used in dating the last almost 50 years is auto-pilot (mechanical, sheepwalker) based.

    To take the famous medallion, which the forever-lovers break in two, when they part for the time being, and then later put together again. Every little part of the edges fitting with each other. Same as the "eyes meeting across the room scenario". It just FITS, alleluja.

    Then how comes, that it never fits for me and almost everybody I know. Simple. It's a Hollywood clich?. And I've been LIVING inside it all my life, in spite of all my individualist theories.

    So change is coming for me. Next chapter will be about this in tomorrows edition of "babble", our local popular talkshow for highbrows.










  7. #87
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    For new readers. Here is what has happened sofar in Psychobabbling's own soap-opera.


    Just like Shrodinger's cat, who doesn't know, if it exists or not, until someone opens the lid and look, the scammer Elena also doesn't know, if she exists. In one reality she doesn't; in another she does, but here she is called Igor. Igor, who has a passionate hobby being a closet transvestite, finances his/her rather expensive taste in clothes by asking western men of the elderly persuasion for money to his/her grandmother's heartoperation.

    Igor's grandmother, in spite of being virtual, has now passed through 331 heartoperations, and to be honest, it's all been a bit too much for her; she (the grandmother) doesn't feel well at all.


    Though thinking that his profession is completely legitimate and honest, Igor has become so identified with his role as Elena, that he decides to go through a sex-change operation, making the whole situation kosher. In a period when his grandmother is not going through heartoperations, he uses some of his income to do this. So now he's really Elena, and s/he's completely free of any inner identity conflicts. For obvious reasons, she has to give up being a transvestite, at least concerning wearing women's clothes, so she decides to become a hedonist instead.


    Before she can bring her plan to fulfilment, she unfortunately falls in love with three western gentlemen simultaneously, and invite them all to visit her, but by some miscalculation, they all three arrive at the same time to her flat. Luckily her flat has a lot of doors and wardrobes, so one episod was mainly about her lovers walking in and out of these doors or spending indeterminate periods in wardrobes, to prevent them from meeting each other.


    Elena feels, that this will bring her into another existential crisis, so she settles for one big love at a time, something like a week for each romantic adventure. But again fate thwarts her plans. Her next lover is a devious and sly sex-tourist, who takes all kind of unmentionable advantages of poor Elena, up to ten times a day (this episod was quite popular according to readers poll). So when he leaves, she's almost in as bad a condition as her grandmother, and wants to live in a monastery.

    The monastery of her choice turns out to be for monks, not nuns, but no-one finds out about this new complication, before it's too late. Besides she's not allowed to have a PC in her cell, so cash is running a bit low, and her grandmother is in desperate need of heartoperation no 332. This time a transplantantion.


    This is where we are now. The producer of the soap-opera asks me to let him say a few words.


    Please, are there any scriptwriters around here? Our present one has run out of ideas and has blown a fuse. Contact personal management, Psychobabbling.

  8. #88
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    Hey swede! When talking about the people of the FSU states not being so different from the people of the US, I was looking more at having dispensed with the political propaganda that had been spewed from both sides for so many decades like so much toxic waste as to pollute the minds of the people. In the US, fear of the "Big Red Machine" was used in such a way as to create hysteria over communism, and such hysterical fear led to hate. One of the first examples of this communist hysteria is quite evidenced by the McCarthy hearings of the 1950's.

    In saying that they aren't so different, I again looked to the big picture. FSUs are human beings. They have families. They love their children. They put on their pants one leg at a time. They laugh and they cry. They have hopes for a better life. Not so different from anyone here in the US now that the human side of them has been made visible with the fall of the Iron Curtain.

    What you've said about people of Denmark, Sweden, Poland and Ukraine concerning second-hand stores can be said about different socio-economic groups here within the US. I shop in second-hand stores. Not so much out of necessity, but simply to save a few bucks here or there. There are some Americans who do shop in these stores out of necessity, and there are some who would have a panic attack at the very thought of doing such a thing.
    quote:There's good guy individualism (outsider'ness) and bad guy individualism as I proposed lately. Repeating the example of the native american medicine man, who is/was the quintessence of the good guy individualist/outsider. Individuals can do a lot. Einstein, Da Vinci.....
    Individualism in and of itself isn't a bad thing so long as the intentions of the individual are, if not beneficial to the whole, not contrary to the well being of the whole. And although some of Einstein's theories were proven to have devastating uses as weapons, as we all know it was other individuals, not he, who applied them as such.
    quote:The problem is, that I believe, that we define "divine" in different ways.
    Thus my choice of that particular word. Put to it the definition that works best for you or whoever reads it.
    quote:A momentary and short change from the general line of tracks, we've had here sofar. Occasionally I wonder, if our little babbleclub will come up with any functionel answers. And today I discovered, that just the fact of babbling with you guys has influenced me as a person in some significant ways.
    Sometimes, it's not so important to find the right answers as it is to find it within yourself to ask the right questions. Our little group is reaching inside ourselves to find some pretty good questions which we then debate openly without interference of ego. If each of us takes something from this forum that helps us to become even the tiniest bit more than we were before, then your little experiment was a great success, and I think we each have gotten something positive from this experience. I know I have.


    Train returns

  9. #89
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    swede, we could always have Elena meet a wealth, much older American who then buys a delapidated farm, forces her to move there with him and shop in second-hand stores. Wacky hillarirty would surely ensue![)]

    Train returns

  10. #90
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    PeopleS,

    try to post a trial episode about Elena here, and if you're up to the literary standard, I've seen you put out a few times before (f.ex. the story of the ukranian getting a job as escortgirl), ask your agent to write a contract for say 5 episodes.


    All the rest of you, sitting out there grumbling about our levity, you don't know what enormous pressure such mental giants as us psychobabblers is living with. Spewing out wisdom non-stop. We need to frolic sometimes.

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