Hello & Welcome to our community. Is this your first visit? Register
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 40
  1. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    623

    Default

    quote:This is why I have suggested a search for methods leading individual people to more personal integrity, before we can even start thinking about utopias...You have formerly talked about evolution as the answer, but I have a very small hope, that we can help awareness on its way by an effort by ourselves.
    If I understand correctly, you seek to educate the masses in a purely non-violent way, and assuming you are able to reach the farthest corners of civilization with such teachings, the first problem is to overcome the individuals preset programming in order for him/her to be able to accept such teachings.

    And the farthest corners aren't the real problem. Third and fourth worlders may be more excepting than the New York to London power broker. Such a change in attitudes would be a slow one to be sure, but isn't that what evolution is? A slow change taking centuries, if not millenia, as opposed to mutation? What the casual sci-fi enthusiast must understand is that mutation doesn't mean turning into some hideous freak or having "super" powers and becoming X-Men. Mutation is merely jumping forward and skipping the normally slow and tedious evolutionary process and nothing more.

    Train returns

  2. #12

    Default

    Hello Swede and Peoplesmok!

    Well, this seem's to be a rather complicated on goeing discussion, Humm, if I may add alittle of my idea's? I Hope not to be boreing!
    Hummm, this subject I think of failed government's and various process's that simply look good on paper but do not work!! I will trow the first rock at a glass house-Mine!!
    Here in America for perffect example is a government that seem's to be confused and out of control! They cannot conduct much of anything with effiency or prior notice to the public, Humm, another form of Socialism? Maybe!? I have to admit that we the Middle Class "The back bone of this country" are being taxed out of exsistance!! Like I have said for many year's we have Freedom here? Hey, do not pay all of your taxes and see how much Freedom we really have!! [V]
    Well I think you get my point, especialy now that this is a election year for a new president and I am Sad and Saorry to see our choices-Yuk, Yuk! I can see no one at this time who is worthy to be our New and Improved President and the party line's do not matter, they are all telling us what they think we want to hear!!!! Too bad that there is not another President Reagan to choose![V]
    Well guy's, this is only one of my many opinion's regarding the short comeing's of our government here in America!! Ohh and by the way I am not anti American the exact opposite actuely is True! I Love this country and it's diversity of people and cultures and idea's-Truely!!
    I some times wonder if our fore Father's are looking down on us with disgust and amazement at our current status!? Well, if I were them I certainly would be!! I think that if we could all take alittle from Socialism, Democratic, Republican, Liberalism we may have a Great Beginning! Like I alway's have said, if it is not broke, do not try to fix it but improve on it!!!
    Well, this is my opinion for today on this subject! It is not the People who do not work, it is our Government's that do not work!!!!


    Sincerely,

    Tone

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    623

    Default

    quote:Ohh and by the way I am not anti American
    Don't worry Tone, I don't think the FBI or Secret Service is tracking this site toooooo closely! But then again.... Anyway, the thing about the system of goverment we have here is that at the time of it's inception, most of the known world was lead by some form of dictatorship, and still is, although more cerimonially. Even swede's homeland still has a King and Queen.

    And despite the taxes, we do have many freedoms that others do and many don't. Sure we can't scream "FIRE" in a packed movie theatre, but you can stand on any street corner and tell anyone who will listen that you think George W. is great, or that you think he's a flaming turd and not dissappear the next day.[:0][8D]

    As for socialism in the US, yes it exists. Social Security, Welfare, workers comp, unemplyoment comp are all socialist style programs intended to help those who CAN'T make it on their own. Unfortunately, there is widespread abuse of these programs.[V]

    I loved Ron Reagan!!! Okay, trickle down economics didn't work in the, but it did look good on paper. The problem there was the greed of the corporate execs, who took the breaks Reagan gave them, and padded their own pockets instead of passing it along to the workers as the plan had been. Enron anyone???

    To our current political outlook, I'm sorry, but John McCain leads my pack of contenders. Obama? This country isn't ready to elect a non-WASP president, regardless of his ideology. Hillary Clinton? Bill actually put her in charge of the health care issue 12 years ago... We're still waiting. And to those who will quickly say, "...well the Republicans controlled Congress..." (my dad), I say, for the first two years of the Clinton White House, the Democrats held both houses and NOTHING got done!!!

    Train returns

  4. #14

    Default

    Agreed Peoplesmok!!!! Ditto and Ditto again!

    I think that the Democrat's are closer in belief's to a Socialistic society however they Never can seem to enable it to work in Reality!! And the Clinton's, Humm can you say Adultery? Deceptive behavior? Disloyalty? Humm, I think this country has had enough of the Clinton regime!!!! I think the most important issue's are where has our Honor, Integrity and Moral's gone to? We need to get back our back bone and I have to admit my vote was alittle partial to Mit Romney even though his Faith is Morman yet he believes in a One Woman Marriage unlike the other heathen's!! I can only say this, the Man made sense and alot of it and he was consistant and True to his form, I cannot Help but Admire a Man whose Conviction's are Ethical and Honorable!!!![^] Humm, Imagine a first meet between Romney and Putin? I would pay to see the fire work's that certainly would develope at that meeting but I think they could become allies, Humm, the Possibilities!!??[]
    Well I Hope I have not bored anyone!!

    Sincerely,

    Tone

  5. #15

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by swede

    Sorry I have to repeat it: Being against communism isn't being for capitalism. I believe I have made that clear several times. Retoric isn't going home.

    I visited Poland before the Sovjet influence was over, and I SAW the hordes of homeless beggars. I saw the milis at every street corner. I saw the empty shops. I saw the run down factories, where the workers had to use technology 40-50 years outdated. I saw the scyhigh energy costs, so people lived in almost freezeboxes. I saw the farmers and collectives being unable to sell their products (even if a great demand existed inside and outside Poland), because the government-directed sales-organisations were led by incompetent party 'beeb'lickers.
    I saw the paranoia in the common people.

    Sure, it was a beautiful system.
    You are right, Swede,

    Poland had not a "bautiful" system. The leading party there was very corrupt. Revisionism destroyed the communist character of that party. Bourgeois elements took it over completely just in the 50ies. The cooperative farms had no chance there, they were not supported anymore by the state. And the agriculture there based only on small farmers, "minifundios", subsistence instead of existence!

    So the country was not able to provide enough food for its own people. In 1980 Poland was bankrupt and not able to pay the credits taken in the West. The dominating clicque only kept itself on power by martial law.

    The basis of the solidarity union was not against socialism. But they hated the way they were treaten without any life quality and without food and satifaction of basic needs by the corrupt dominating clicque. The USSR sold gold and diamonds in masses on the world market to pay the debts of Poland in those years... .

    But Poland was not the example for all the Eastern countries.

    Goddiejens

  6. #16

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by PeopleSmoks

    quote:The marxist-leninist parties have nothing to do with "beliefsystem" or religious sects. They are very dedicated to study the social reality and find a way to change the world so that not profit making but welfare of all people is the central value of the society.
    Ahhhh! But it IS a beliefsystem, and for it to succeed, ALL involved MUST believe in it. As I have posted in psycho-b, I find the ideal and concept to be quite intriguing and wonderful were it possible, but as soon as one becomes the "leader", which is inevitable considering the vast number of weak minded in the world, all equality is then lost, and true socialism along with it.
    quote:Well, you only see the "biest character" of the human beings. So you might just identify yourself with the "wolfes" in this "wolfe capitalism". From this position you cannot change anything in the present society. You can only express that you like some things and that you dislike some other things. But you cannot really move anything to find solutions for groups of people which you may be would like to help.
    The problem is that this "biest character" is today's reality. I personally am a bit of a dreamer, just as you appear to be. However, I do have at least one foot firmly planted in the reality that what true communism/socialism involves simply can not take place in present day world society. As I have said, ALL must abide by such, or what is the alternative??? Do you plan to FORCE compliance with the state??? Sounds a bit like Uncle Joe Stalin's mindset.

    So, please tell me... Just HOW would you institute such a massive socio-economic world wide change without building a massive army, nuclear weapons and "conquering" the world in order to spread your good ideals??? Tough question huh? Yes, I have many questions and few answers. I claim no special abilities my friend.
    quote:I visited Poland before the Sovjet influence was over, and I SAW the hordes of homeless beggars. I saw the milis at every street corner. I saw the empty shops. I saw the run down factories, where the workers had to use technology 40-50 years outdated. I saw the scyhigh energy costs, so people lived in almost freezeboxes. I saw the farmers and collectives being unable to sell their products (even if a great demand existed inside and outside Poland), because the government-directed sales-organisations were led by incompetent party 'beeb'lickers.
    I saw the paranoia in the common people.
    As we have opportunity to discuss elsewhere, the basic ideology behind communism isn't the problem as I see it. The problem is human greed, and all it takes is one Joe Stalin to corrupt the whole thing until it becomes what it did.

    Train returns
    Hi PeopleSmoks,

    Marx or Lenin never formulated "Believe in me! I am your godness now! We can make it!"

    They analized the essence of the human civilization and society. They found out why there is so much explotation, who are the explotating and who are the exploted people. And they formulated a scientific (!) theory how the working class can take over the power and terminate with explotation of human beings by other human beings. And well, there are no sweet words of believing in democracy, Marx and Lenin formulate clear about "proletarian dictatorship".

    Take Lenin as leader, take Stalin as leader, take Fidel Castro as leader ... all these leaders were good ones and achieved a very lot for their countries and people. We only need to compare how the broad masses of the people lived before the revolutions and 20 years after the victory of the revolution. And I do not speak of paradises after dying, I speak of realities in the lifes of many millions of people.

    Well, dreams of a better world stay to be pure illusions without fighting in organised form with many other same interested people for this better world. The Red Army changed big parts of the world by fighting and defending the USSR, the "rebels of 1968" smoked a lot of drugs and changed nothing in the world but dreamed and rottened in the existing systems. Of course, it has well to do with forcing the bourgoisy to accept what the proletarian revolution dictates. Look how bloody the bourgeoisy fights peaceful manifestations, how much repression the people face in many countries only because some big clans of mining and other companies and banks from US or wherever rob the natural ressources and want to keep the high level of profits without mind of how violent and criminal the used methods are. There is only one question: Are you on the side of the people there? Or are you on the side of the repressing regimes on behalf of the big trusts and banks?

    I see what Hugo Chavez is doing. He tries his very best to come to a socialist society there in a really peaceful way. But without army it is not possible, his enemies from CIA via Columbia's gangsters to the oligarchy in Venezuela put thousands of death squads and armed gangs in his country ... can you defeat them without arms? Chavez goes the strict way of democracy but they show him that democracy is not an important value of the bourgeoisy, only profit and private property is the value of the bourgeoisy there... .

    The other posting, well, I answered above.

    Sincerely,

    Goddiejens

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    381

    Default

    Cit. PeopleS:

    "If I understand correctly, you seek to educate the masses in a purely non-violent way"

    You know, I can be intolerably pedantic about my language, because many expressions are so loaded with extrameanings. So if I can avoid the association to totalitarian systems "educating the masses", ..... yes.

    But my whole concept of change lies more at the level of pragmatism and personal demonstration. When you start "educating" at mass level, it's usually a forced process. Learning reading, writing and mathematics is actually also forced. What I want to do is more like somebody starts learning, maybe even showing positive results, which can inspire others.

    Though personally a pacifist, I consider pacifism as a beliefsystem. It has never shown any especially provable value, and I can still think of some situations, where violence is the only answer. Hitler's third reich f.ex., where it was justified to make resistance against his system. So I wouldn't say, that the "mass education" necessarily should be non-violent. But I'm rather certain, that any integrated person would be less prone to using violence, when it's not needed.
    (Spanking Olgas doesn't count).

    What I meant with a chosen change is the possibility of using free will and a measure of selfdiscipline. Precisely as with learning anything else.

    Cit. Tone:

    "I some times wonder if our fore Father's are looking down on us with disgust and amazement at our current status!? Well, if I were them I certainly would be!! I think that if we could all take alittle from Socialism, Democratic, Republican, Liberalism we may have a Great Beginning! Like I alway's have said, if it is not broke, do not try to fix it but improve on it!!!
    Well, this is my opinion for today on this subject! It is not the People who do not work, it is our Government's that do not work!!!!"

    With my limited knowledge of politics, it's my impression, that the american constitution is quite sane. But it's also my impression, that a lot of the last 50 years of adminstrations have done their best to neglect it.

    As I see it, fundamentally three groups exist in society. The alpha fe/males; the critical independants (true liberals f.ex.) and the sheepwalkers. The sheepwalkers can be decent, or if they have recieved dictatorcrazed messages about blood and gore, they can be devils. But usually they don't initiate more problems than smallscale scamming and greed on their own. The idea of making politics more a question of separate situations onstead of a stonehard party-line thing could be useful.

    Cit PeopleS:

    "Even swede's homeland still has a King and Queen."

    I'm all for constitutional monarchy. They are harmless, and as entertainment less mentally disruptive than soap-operas. And contrary to presidents, they don't seem to run off with half the national treasure from time to time.

    "but you can stand on any street corner and tell anyone who will listen that you think George W. is great, or that you think he's a flaming turd and not dissappear the next day."

    In the system Jens (sofar very vaguely) has suggested, this would not be an option.

    Cit Tone:

    "Well I Hope I have not bored anyone!!"

    Don't worry about that. If PeopleS and I can get away with it, so can you.

  8. #18

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by Anthony Ferrara

    Hello Swede and Peoplesmok!

    Well, this seem's to be a rather complicated on goeing discussion, Humm, if I may add alittle of my idea's? I Hope not to be boreing!
    Hummm, this subject I think of failed government's and various process's that simply look good on paper but do not work!! I will trow the first rock at a glass house-Mine!!
    Here in America for perffect example is a government that seem's to be confused and out of control! They cannot conduct much of anything with effiency or prior notice to the public, Humm, another form of Socialism? Maybe!? I have to admit that we the Middle Class "The back bone of this country" are being taxed out of exsistance!! Like I have said for many year's we have Freedom here? Hey, do not pay all of your taxes and see how much Freedom we really have!! [V]
    Well I think you get my point, especialy now that this is a election year for a new president and I am Sad and Saorry to see our choices-Yuk, Yuk! I can see no one at this time who is worthy to be our New and Improved President and the party line's do not matter, they are all telling us what they think we want to hear!!!! Too bad that there is not another President Reagan to choose![V]
    Well guy's, this is only one of my many opinion's regarding the short comeing's of our government here in America!! Ohh and by the way I am not anti American the exact opposite actuely is True! I Love this country and it's diversity of people and cultures and idea's-Truely!!
    I some times wonder if our fore Father's are looking down on us with disgust and amazement at our current status!? Well, if I were them I certainly would be!! I think that if we could all take alittle from Socialism, Democratic, Republican, Liberalism we may have a Great Beginning! Like I alway's have said, if it is not broke, do not try to fix it but improve on it!!!
    Well, this is my opinion for today on this subject! It is not the People who do not work, it is our Government's that do not work!!!!


    Sincerely,

    Tone
    Hi Anthony,

    the middle class is not the backbone of any country. The working classes produce the goods and give the service. They are paid in salary but work for much more so that there is created a lot of profit finally.

    The middle class people want to be as rich as the upper class people. But they do not have the political or economic power. The power in such an imperialist state like USA is clearly in the hands of some clans who are owners of the big trusts and banks. They do not care of middle class, they plunder also the insurance and safety funds of the middle class ... hey, you do not live in democracy (which is only a form of dominance), you live in a highly developed capitalism (which is the essence of the society in the USA).

    So in effect big parts of the middle class are expropriated and get bankrupt plundered by the trusts and banks. They do never get as rich as the upper class, they get poor like the poor proletarians there who only can sell their manpower to the capitalists. They like or they dislike it, the society is based on mechanisms.

    Your government works with very violent and just pure terrorist methods to rob the petrol and gaz ressources in Asia and in the countries where the muslims live. Bush started a kind of World War 3 at 9/11 when the CIA convenced a good part of the people in the USA to start the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan and start to subordinate with all power also Iran and finally come to the Siberian and Caucasian petrol and gaz ressourced in benefit of only the big trusts. Your government needs your money to spend it on military expenses, the manufacturers of arms make best profits now there in your country by only state orders... .

    But well or not well, don't think that things go better in West Europe. Here also more and more is paid for armies all over the world as allied troops of the US troops there.

    I am against this war. I am against these big shareholder clans who own the big banks and trusts. And I am not alone here, there are very good people with me.

    Goddiejens

  9. #19

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by swede

    "but you can stand on any street corner and tell anyone who will listen that you think George W. is great, or that you think he's a flaming turd and not dissappear the next day."

    In the system Jens (sofar very vaguely) has suggested, this would not be an option.
    Not right, Swede,

    and you should really know it better based on your experience in Poland.

    When I lived in East Berlin I critizised a very lot for example the wall politics there. I complained a lot about stupid functioneers and leaders. Every worker in a state factory there could open his mouth very good to say to his director or master "You are the biggest asshole going around here" ... nothing could happen with him.

    Well, painting a nazi cross ("hakenkreuz") on the wall could bring a person fast in jail, but I agreed with jail for such persons always.

    Last not least, I have a dossier as victim at the state security of East Germany ... only that you do not confuse me with "religious" communists sect members.. .

    Goddiejens

  10. #20

    Default

    Well, guys,

    I want to stop here to discuss more in this political way with you. We have different opinions, otherwise it would be boring. I respect your position and hopefully you do not damn me in person that I have my one.

    I only wanted to make clear why I do not see a solution on sex slaves trade within our existing capitalist / imperialist global society. Making profit, doing business as dirty as possible and as perverse as possible only to have profitable business running ... is a characteristic of our system. This is my message here, nothing else.

    I see that we all want to change the situation and improve the situation of the affected people so that nobody is in absolute need to prostitute himself or herself. That's a good beginning. And it is good that we all want that.

    Sincerely,

    Goddiejens

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT. The time now is 01:08 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3
Copyright © 2016 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
Username Changing provided by Username Change (Free) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2016 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Skin By: PurevB.com